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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #23

1000 replies

nauticant · 02/03/2025 12:52

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It is planned that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21
Thread 22: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5280174-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-22

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60
NoBinturongsHereMate · 04/03/2025 09:31

The Scotsman piece managed to get both the title and date of the Equality Act wrong.

Still, it's good to see ongoing press.presence.even when trival. And particularly encouraging that the Aberdeen one asked their own local board.

Jimmyneutronsforehead · 04/03/2025 09:38

DontTellMeWhat2Do · 03/03/2025 22:03

It makes me wish I'd studied law so I could work / study with such amazing women like these legal feminists.

While ever the world keeps on turning there's still time to do it if its what you want to do.

PrettyDamnCosmic · 04/03/2025 10:05

NoBinturongsHereMate · 04/03/2025 09:31

The Scotsman piece managed to get both the title and date of the Equality Act wrong.

Still, it's good to see ongoing press.presence.even when trival. And particularly encouraging that the Aberdeen one asked their own local board.

The Scotsman article also seems to think that Upton was a senior doctor & by implication SP was a junior nurse but does make a pertinent comment that WTF did Upton think he was doing by entering a female changing room.

Turning to Dr Upton, as a senior member of staff. did she think it was in the interests of the efficient working of the hospital to place herself in a changing room where she suspected her presence might cause distress?

Just because you can do something, doesn’t mean you should. Was it good sense or good manners to put junior members of staff in a situation where they may have felt fearful or alarmed?

KnottyAuty · 04/03/2025 10:05

CriticalCondition · 04/03/2025 08:58

That's a pretty rubbish 'opinion' for a former police officer. Society doesn't leave conflicts of rights to be determined by 'good manners'. That's why we have laws. And NHS Fife didn't follow them. Stupid man. He seems to think it was all just a silly spat between senior and junior staff that Fife allowed to get out of hand.

I agree although this stuff is civil law rather than criminal isn't it?
In general I thought it looked promising that there was a shift - would that article have been published a few months back? It seemed much better in tone than even the week of SP's Tribunal. So - yes it's not the complete reversal you might like - but seems like a promising turn of the political tide imo anyway

Edited to add - in my mind this is the main sort of article which will help get people talking. Instead of it being about strange people who scream and pour wee on buildings in protests (generally who wants to think about that or get involved better to hide) and much "safer" territory of who is polite. In that context it is potentially a WTF-moment for a lot of people. The small social rules are what makes up the fabric of BeKind - this pulls at some of the threads

thenoisiesttermagant · 04/03/2025 10:25

That's some premium grade gaslighting bullshit from the hospital. They've conducted a witch hunt against SP without bothering to check if there's any evidence of the allegations against her and treated her with something like the dictionary definition of the OPPOSITE of kindness and respect.

They didn't respect her wish for a single sex changing room did they? They didn't respect her speaking up or show kindness.

The massive great hairy balls to make this statement.

They continue with ' As an organisation, NHS Fife remains committed to upholding its duty of care to all employees.'

HAHAHAHAHA. We don't believe you. Actions speak louder than words.

A 'duty of care' would have been to find out if there was any basis at all to the patient safety allegations - which there clearly wasn't. Why would you even take the word of a man who, despite having male biology thinks he's 'female'.

So worrying a health board can act like this and explains the dire state of the NHS if this is what they're pissing their time / money away on.

OhBuggerandArse · 04/03/2025 10:26

PrettyDamnCosmic · 04/03/2025 10:05

The Scotsman article also seems to think that Upton was a senior doctor & by implication SP was a junior nurse but does make a pertinent comment that WTF did Upton think he was doing by entering a female changing room.

Turning to Dr Upton, as a senior member of staff. did she think it was in the interests of the efficient working of the hospital to place herself in a changing room where she suspected her presence might cause distress?

Just because you can do something, doesn’t mean you should. Was it good sense or good manners to put junior members of staff in a situation where they may have felt fearful or alarmed?

I think he's under the misapprehension that Upton is a reasonable sort of person amenable to that kind of balanced assessment, and hasn't understood the nature of the ideology and its narcissistic need to disrupt and control. Very typical of that kind of middle-aged male journalist who can't really (be bothered to) see what all the fuss is about.

And don't get me started on the idea that a nurse with 30 years experience is somehow junior to a recently qualified doctor with damn all clue about anything much, even if not brain-addled by gender wibble. I hope those who work in the NHS can reassure us that in practice colleagues have a bit more respect for nurses' skills and qualifications.

GrumpyMenopausalWombWielder · 04/03/2025 10:31

Just FYI there's another employment tribunal happening today.

https://x.com/tribunaltweets/status/1896864117887246795?s=46

"... rehearing of primary school teacher 'Hannah' vs Nottingham County Council - claiming unfair dismissal. This case was part heard in March of last year before collapsing on day when a panel member's social media content was alleged to indicate anti-religious bias.

Jed Purkis's actions were later judged to have been misconduct. "

Justme56 · 04/03/2025 10:53

I gather that Rev Randall’s employment tribunal appeal (Trent College - Nottingham) starts today too. I think it was held back due to the Kristie Higgs judgement.

ICouldHaveCheckedFirst · 04/03/2025 11:05

Te risk assessments (RAs). At my work (public sector), all staff in my large department were trained in how to carry out RAs (forms were based on the HSE ones). I frequently heard our H&S officer querying people's forms, saying, 'if an accident occurred, would YOU be prepared to defend your RA in court?' emphasising the 'you'. Clearly not everywhere is as rigorous.

GrumpyMenopausalWombWielder · 04/03/2025 11:06

Justme56 · 04/03/2025 10:53

I gather that Rev Randall’s employment tribunal appeal (Trent College - Nottingham) starts today too. I think it was held back due to the Kristie Higgs judgement.

I've just seen this too

https://x.com/tribunaltweets2/status/1896852128976785489?s=46

2 for 1 today from Tribunal Tweets.

GrumpyMenopausalWombWielder · 04/03/2025 11:14

ICouldHaveCheckedFirst · 04/03/2025 11:05

Te risk assessments (RAs). At my work (public sector), all staff in my large department were trained in how to carry out RAs (forms were based on the HSE ones). I frequently heard our H&S officer querying people's forms, saying, 'if an accident occurred, would YOU be prepared to defend your RA in court?' emphasising the 'you'. Clearly not everywhere is as rigorous.

Edited

This is what I find baffling over RAs/EQIAs etc. This isn't new legislation, or a novel thing rarely used. It's standard practice & necessary in almost all aspects of an organisation or business. It's worrying that years of knowledge & expertise is being dumped in favour of lobbyists demands, all while being oblivious to the very real possibility that the buck stops with the person writing the RA/EQIA and/or their boss. I don't know anyone who would take that level of personal risk for the sake of their employer. I wouldn't.

Many (not all) younger, inexperienced & frankly ignorant people have come into the workplace with a misplaced sense of 'mission' whereby they're doing the bidding of lobbyists & pushing out wiser & cooler heads. It's not all 'younger vs older' staff, as it's also many younger people bringing in activism to their roles & older more senior staff thinking this is how you engage/retain younger workers.

It's a recipe for the shit show we're all dealing with now.

PriOn1 · 04/03/2025 11:20

CriticalCondition · 04/03/2025 08:58

That's a pretty rubbish 'opinion' for a former police officer. Society doesn't leave conflicts of rights to be determined by 'good manners'. That's why we have laws. And NHS Fife didn't follow them. Stupid man. He seems to think it was all just a silly spat between senior and junior staff that Fife allowed to get out of hand.

While I agree that rights need to be enshrined in law, there is a lot of truth in the fact that societal rules of decency have been profoundly eroded.

Upton, for example, had he been a decent human being, would never have inflicted himself on women, but even if he wasn’t, in the past, societal norms would have put pressure on him not to go in there.

That ED doesn’t believed Upton is a woman is clear from the fact that she said she would have liked to have warned women he would be in their changing room. Had she been in a normal societal situation, she would have been able to politely challenge his presence on behalf of her staff and there could have been a polite, common sense discussion about the policy and whether it was reasonable.

There’s a lot to be said for decency and common sense. They cover a lot of situations where there isn’t legal clarity . They’ve been severely undermined in our society, to our detriment. It’s often been pointed out, for example, that toilets (other than presumably in workplaces) have never been covered by a legal requirement, relating to sex. It’s always been societal norms that meant men did not invade the women’s. Good manners and decency are what kept men out, even if. Current social engineering has offered predatory men an opportunity, while at the same time deeming it “bad manners” to challenge him.

The law is a blunt tool. All the people who would have politely challenged him have been muzzled and that isn’t down to the law. A bit of common sense and decency could equally have ensured Upton would never have made it into the women’s, whatever the law says, as it was so obvious women would be upset. Nobody reasonable would think a policy that upset tens of women in order to cater to one man’s desire could ever be fair.

StuckBehindtheTallboy · 04/03/2025 11:37

It declares that all members of staff are “entitled to use toilet and changing facilities appropriate to the sex in which they are currently living, regardless of whether they undergo gender reassignment, such as hormonal or surgical treatment or having socially transitioned by changing name, appearance, title, clothing etc.”

Any sane person reading that would surely assume that the "sex you are living in" just means the sex you are, given that nothing at all needs to have changed. "Whatever you've done to your male body, use the gents", in other words.

ThatsNotMyTeen · 04/03/2025 11:54

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c20d12lr7p4o

Not sure if this has been mentioned already, sorry. NHS Fife seemingly trying to punish another woman for wrongthink. To be clear I don’t agree with this woman’s stance on abortion, but morally and legally she is allowed to object to it.

Sara Spencer standing next to a door frame. She has long brown hair and is slightly smiling at the camera.

Trainee midwife suspended over anti-abortion views

Sara Spencer underwent an investigation and was cleared of expressing her personal beliefs inappropriately.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c20d12lr7p4o

duc748 · 04/03/2025 12:07

StuckBehindtheTallboy · 04/03/2025 11:37

It declares that all members of staff are “entitled to use toilet and changing facilities appropriate to the sex in which they are currently living, regardless of whether they undergo gender reassignment, such as hormonal or surgical treatment or having socially transitioned by changing name, appearance, title, clothing etc.”

Any sane person reading that would surely assume that the "sex you are living in" just means the sex you are, given that nothing at all needs to have changed. "Whatever you've done to your male body, use the gents", in other words.

I dunno about 'any sane person', but certainly, you could reasonably put that interpretation on it. But equally obviously to me, surely the point is that that was not what the drafters intended to be inferred from the wording. What they meant was, fill your boots, lads.

NoBinturongsHereMate · 04/03/2025 12:28

morally and legally she is allowed to object to it

And the NHS makes specific provision for this - doctors, nurses and pharmacists are allowed to opt out of providing both abortion and contraceptive services provided they refer patients to another provider.

Waitwhat23 · 04/03/2025 12:34

Elaine Miller said it well about MBM -

'Holyrood was not set up with a second chamber, but @mbmpolicy appear to have become it.'

https://x.com/GussieGrips/status/1896831658973933946

Become they have. They've been more diligent, questioning and sane than any overseeing process set up by the SG and we're bloody lucky to have them.

https://x.com/GussieGrips/status/1896831658973933946

OhBuggerandArse · 04/03/2025 13:01

Waitwhat23 · 04/03/2025 12:34

Elaine Miller said it well about MBM -

'Holyrood was not set up with a second chamber, but @mbmpolicy appear to have become it.'

https://x.com/GussieGrips/status/1896831658973933946

Become they have. They've been more diligent, questioning and sane than any overseeing process set up by the SG and we're bloody lucky to have them.

On no money. MBM that is. Save a tiny bit of crowdfunding that ran out ages ago. Presumably the SG feel that eventually they will get to the point where they are financially compelled to give up and stop bothering them any more. We could do a lot worse than finding a sustainable financial model for their work...

GrumpyMenopausalWombWielder · 04/03/2025 13:28

"On no money. MBM that is. Save a tiny bit of crowdfunding that ran out ages ago. Presumably the SG feel that eventually they will get to the point where they are financially compelled to give up and stop bothering them any more. We could do a lot worse than finding a sustainable financial model for their work..."

We should have something in place. Scotgov have outsourced every other part of their functions to various NGOs who get paid a fortune for piss poor oversight/risk assessments/EQIAs so there's certainly a place in for what MBM do. MSPs/committees seem to be incapable of any scrutiny or even basic curiosity with the work they do these days. While MBM's due diligence is of a high quality & cuts through a lot of the noise.

We absolutely need more of MBM & across more than this topic.

DontTellMeWhat2Do · 04/03/2025 15:38

sorry to sound thick but what is MBM?

FlowchartRequired · 04/03/2025 15:40

DontTellMeWhat2Do · 04/03/2025 15:38

sorry to sound thick but what is MBM?

https://murrayblackburnmackenzie.org/

Peregrina · 04/03/2025 16:11

I had never heard of MBM either. Are they 'good guys' ?

I know that this ET has gained a huge amount of interest in Scotland, but here is S England none of my friends appear to be interested. They are more concerned about the world situation - but you can be interested in both surely?

ShockedandStunnedRepeatedly · 04/03/2025 16:20

MBM are good gals!

KnottyAuty · 04/03/2025 16:20

GrumpyMenopausalWombWielder · 04/03/2025 10:31

Just FYI there's another employment tribunal happening today.

https://x.com/tribunaltweets/status/1896864117887246795?s=46

"... rehearing of primary school teacher 'Hannah' vs Nottingham County Council - claiming unfair dismissal. This case was part heard in March of last year before collapsing on day when a panel member's social media content was alleged to indicate anti-religious bias.

Jed Purkis's actions were later judged to have been misconduct. "

What a wonderful thoughtful sermon! Unbelievable that someone would lose their job over something like that - what other context is there that made this so ghastly? Is there a separate thread?

DontTellMeWhat2Do · 04/03/2025 16:47

Ah I thought it might be them, thanks

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