NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #23

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It is planned that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21
Thread 22: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5280174-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-22

Kids referred to the Tavistock were 10 times more likely to have a parent who was a registered sex offender according to Hannah Barnes.

Very little shocks me about this stuff, but that figure did.

If your DH was feeling brave in July, maybe then would be a good moment to write to their line management to flag up that this was an issue - and that they might want to check they are OK under the law given the Sandie Peggie case?! Obviously out of concern for the NHS/HR teams you understand.... 😂

I think Upton will present better - it's not just about looks.

I imagine he won't present himself like a metal band roadie to go to court.

Another who thought he looked like a metal band roadie.
Perhaps he'll dress a bit more Dolly Parton At A Funeral for court?
Pondering if he'll post in Style and Beauty for advice?

Talking of how they might present...did anyone else watching Upton's evidence notice how diligently he fastened up his womanly jacket as he rose to his feet from behind the witness box, every single time?
Women don't need to do this.
I wouldn't even begin to hypothesise the reason that a nice long jacket was called for. And fastened so very carefully.

🍆?

Talking of how they might present...did anyone else watching Upton's evidence notice how diligently he fastened up his womanly jacket as he rose to his feet from behind the witness box, every single time?
Women don't need to do this.

It wasn't something I paid attention to at the time but I can picture it now you say.

Completely off topic, but I didn't know the significance of that emoji until I watched a short film a few years ago where this and another emoji were used in text messages (). I had to look them up to understand the ending. I must be getting old.

To add to this - IF NHS Fife had read through the evidence and worked out the timelines themselves, they’d have realised they might lose on procedural grounds, settled and be done with it. But because they clearly didn’t have a good look at the details, they’d were probably in the mindset that they would pay Upton’s fees because SP was the perceived aggressor with her vexatious claim…

Now that they’ve heard the details and what DU said under oath I’d expect that they’re regretting that decision because if DU has gone to great lengths to victimise SP, they’ve clearly picked the wrong side.

Whether any of the Trust have paid as much attention as us to the details remains to be seen…

I think the Board are now saying they didn't have sight of all details of the case until two days before it all hit the papers. So either they are genuinely shit at being a Board (bearing in mind you are supposed to be cognisant of anything affecting the organisation) or things were hidden from them

Where did you see that? Very interesting (& not in a good way!)

I didn't notice the doing up but I did notice the one-handed undoing as he sat down. It was the completely automatic unconscious action that my husband and all my male colleagues have. It seems the muscle memory runs deep.

Haven’t the Trust staff been telling staff that there were problems and media doesn’t know the full story? All is yet to be revealed etc?

There’s probably an authentic video of SP accidentally squishing someone!s Tunnock with the situation resolved by a Heavenly DU-resembling seraphim who distributes intact Tunnocks with Irn Bru to knock it back.

Not as unlikely as it seems (sadly) but the Chair and NEDs needed to be all over this. If not before then definitely after anonymity was waived and it was scheduled for public hearings.

It’s awfully helpful for the board to have plausible deniability like this even if, at best, it highlights their poor horizon scanning, governance, and oversight.

Maybe email and ask?!

I have t seen it anywhere it was unofficial channels from the hospital eg gossip 😂

But… just by asking to add a colleague as Respondant sends out the warning. If you’re assisting is discrimination then expect to be held personally accountable…. BeKind probably is less compelling if you end up with potential ££££ liabilities….

Yes, @KnottyAuty I agree. Good point.

I'm busy catching up on all the work I missed while glue to SP's hearing. But I can't understand how the various DEI bods have been ticking "no effect" boxes for women when it doesn't stand up to any objective numbers. (I'm all about the numbers BTW 😂).

When I get a moment I was going to try crunching the numbers on a CR risk assessment using the method used by the HSE for construction work:

Risk is usually understood to be: likelihood x consequence

I have managed to get the figures from the ONS about women, but does anyone have figures for me regarding the incidence of assaults and harassment on Trans people please?

Re: adding KS as a respondent - ISTR that someone, somewhere on one of the earlier threads suggested that although a respondent can be compelled to attend an ET, a witness can't necessarily. If that's correct then there may also be an element of binding KS into the ET more thoroughly?

Don’t know if this will have enough detail, but it might be a start:

https://thecritic.co.uk/neither-marginalised-abused-nor-vulnerable/

(Some lovely person on a previous thread shared it with me).

If you want to call a witness and they don't want to attend, you can ask the tribunal to order them to attend.

Ah, ok, thanks. And can they be charged with contempt of court if they still don't show up?

It is actually a criminal offence if the tribunal issues a witness order and the witness fails to attend unless they have a reasonable excuse.

In real life a female patient was raped by a trans identified male patient and the hospital told police that there was no man on the ward. I think it took a year for them to admit there was a man and they only did so when cctv footage came to light.