NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #23

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It is planned that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21
Thread 22: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5280174-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-22

Most young people who are in care are in foster care. Children's homes went right out of fashion and the children who are sent there are usually those who can't live in a family setting. They are the most vulnerable of all and need a lot of support.

My friend's adopted son was beyond control and placed in a children's home. His needs were off the scale. Everyone in the home had a background of sexual abuse and most were leaving the home to have sex for money - and once a yp is prepared to do that, workers have little power over them.

And it's into this atmosphere that they are doing this? Unbelievable. And I'm wondering what the rules on fostering are these days. Usually kids in care have their own rooms.

Sadly, not just outside. For example, in Nottingham in the '60s to at least the '80s. Many children were abused by people who were supposed to be caring for them. Then the abused unloved children were dumped into society with next to no support at 16 years old.

Centre point is a charity that supports people leaving care - mainly in London, and unfortunately full on the TWAW train but still vital for many young people who have to leave care at 18 with no further support

This is very useful from SEEN in health

https://assets.ctfassets.net/p9eb47dy7bbi/6HTlkKzzWyc22dMdIsRFtw/917c6ab7e314b90d5a856e858e58a878/2025-03-12-case-law-overview-previous-and-incoming.pdf

"Case law overview: previous and
incoming
In recent years, several employment tribunal cases in the UK have addressed the protection of gender-critical beliefs under the Equality Act 2010.
These cases highlight ongoing legal debates within the NHS regarding the balance between accommodating transgender individuals and respecting the rights of those with gender-critical beliefs.
The outcomes of these tribunals are anticipated to have significant implications for workplace policies and the interpretation of equality and discrimination laws within healthcare settings."

I have a regular donation to Centrepoint. I keep an eye on their trans policies and, while they speak the GI language, I've never seen them crossing women's boundaries around accomodation. Happy to be corrected, and move my donations elsewhere, if anyone knows better.

https://centrepoint.org.uk/news/creating-safe-spaces-transgender-young-people

I have just read the Centrepoint stuff, and quite honestly, it sounds like a lot of unsupported assumptions.

I doubt for one minute that when it was founded in 1969 there was the slightest whiff of 'trans' in its original service provision. I can imagine that some young men at that time would suffer as a result of being homosexual.

Notice how they use a neuro-divergent 'trans man'. Without knowing the woman in question, isn't it more likely that she has mental health issues?

And of course, the fashionable 'gender neutral' toilets. No allowance for women who want privacy in the loos, of course not.

Yes, that is the sort of thing I mean. They are talking the language of GI, but I can see no evidence of encouraging males into females' spaces, or vice versa

SPAG edit

Yes that's the kind of stuff I mean - they talk about GI and being trans inclusive but the rooms they offer are singles usually. It's annoying but the good they do outweighs their be kind bollocks in my head

I agree. These are desperately vulnerable young people they are dealing with. They have to meet them where they are, not where we would like them to be.

I would imagine that they follow the 3rd sector line about trans inclusivity and in fact they say this: "we encourage gender-neutral toilets within all our buildings, with appropriate signage including explicit trans-inclusion information near the facilities." I expect that means posters saying "use the facilities that match your gender ID and don't query anyone" .

Well one glaring error is that they speak of the 'LGBT' community, not the trans community, and quote stats that do not refer specifically to trans people:
Research shows LGBT people are more likely to find themselves homeless than their non-LGBT peers, and make up around 24% of the youth homelessness population. Here at Centrepoint, we are fully aware of the need to provide safe spaces for this community.

Statements like this make no sense as LGB people and T people are not one community, they are different, have different needs and un-differentiated services for 'LGBT people' will probably result in males in female spaces and vice versa.

LGB✂T isn't just a slogan for a slogan's sake, it's the only way to make sure appropriate services are delivered to specific groups, such as LGB and T, but not in one artificially bolted-together 'community'.

Not sure if this was posted already https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-14502875/NHS-Fife-chief-battling-Sandie-Peggie-gender-row-bags-bumper-10k-rise-paid-Minister.html

Massive pay rise? She should get the fucking sack!

Blimey they clearly aren’t paying any PR staff 🤣🤣 NHS Fife do love a self inflicted wound don’t they?!

I'm not going to disagree with any of this. I'm just not going to pull my funding without active evidence of harm to young women through their policies. A level of harm that means those young women would be better off with the alternative - which is the streets

On a slightly more lighthearted note some letters to the express about Stergeon quitting 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣https://www.scottishdailyexpress.co.uk/comment/nicola-sturgeon-letters-special-scottish-34872377?utm_source=linkCopy&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=sharebar

No argument from me
I donate to a women's charity that is - on paper at least, but that might be because they have to - TWAW, but as you say about Centrepoint, they provide an alternative to the unthinkable, so..

I just wish organisations would stop mixing up the T with the LGB when they are very different groups - it's building in inaccuracies and potential dangers.

Same here. Abortion Support Network's CEO has said some uncomplimentary things about "TERFs" but it's the women of Poland, Isle of Man, Ireland (after 12 weeks), and Malta who suffer if I cancel that standing order, so I roll my eyes and count down the days until she gets off that particular gravy train.

Abortion Support Network's CEO has said some uncomplimentary things about "TERFs"

Maybe we should challenge them more? A simple "Sorry, what do you mean by TERF? How does it affect your charity?"

I feel a lot of people, I know some in real life, haven't really thought it through (or haven't "peaked" yet) and are just repeating the words not realising who is promoting them. These being the transactivists.

ASN drowned themselves in a vat of Koolaid years ago with talk of "pregnant people". The thing is that all the "pregnant people" are women, whether they want to be or not, and I will support their access to abortion even as I howl with laughter at their ridiculous "polygender" identity and despair of their "not like the other girls" internalised misogyny.

KJK once said "right-wing women are women". Deluded women are also women.

I can only imagine the eye rolls from the women completing those forms. Although, they are probably so inured to it now that it seems every form in the world asks about gender identity.

Dworkin:

Right-wing women have surveyed the world; they find it a dangerous place. They are not wrong.

Feminism is a political practice of fighting male supremacy on behalf of women as a class, including all the women you don’t like, including all the woman you don’t want to be around, including all the women who used to be your best friends whom you don’t want anything to do with any more. It doesn’t matter who the individual women are.

@

Someone wise on a post in this board ages ago said: the right see women as private property and the left view women as public property.

And that was a real wake up for me. Now I look at politics through that lens and it is pretty accurate

Disturbingly true!