NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #23

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It is planned that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21
Thread 22: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5280174-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-22

Timely indeed, @GCEpileptic but the last thing you need at this time! Thank goodness the security guards were there. I hope you're as okay as you can be

It'll be intereseting to hear the trust's response when you do feel up to raising it with them. Let's hope it's not going to be predictable.

Sounds frightening.

My adult daughter was in hospital several years ago and there were rooms for men and for women but they connected to a central hub. There was a guy with a metal chain round his stomach - it had a long chain attached which presumably attached to a bed or security staff. But he was walking around, so it had detached from whatever he was supposed to be chained to. The matron called security but it took ages for them to come. He was ranting, it was incredibly scary. And I wasn't even in a bed, just visiting.

@GCEpileptic Thank goodness that there were security people nearby. I hope that you are doing ok as can be and that the rest of your stay is uneventful.

Sorry to hear that @GCEpileptic . Sounds scary! Maybe make a contemporaneous note until you raise it formally.

In related-ish news, has anyone noticed the thread on the Mumsnet Census:

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/site_stuff/5291529-mumsnet-census?utm_campaign=thread&utm_medium=share

Sex options apparently are:

M
F
Intersex

Many articulate objections on the thread to the offensive use of “intersex”; no reply from MNHQ yet.

Yes, sorry to hear about your experience @GCEpileptic it really does sound scary. Definitely illustrates the point and thank goodness the security people happened to be there in your case. Hope it doesn't impact too much on how you feel for the rest of your hospital stay, and that you make a good recovery.

thank you for so many kind replies! I did indeed make a Upton style contemporaneous note by texting DH all details - best bit is will have been recorded on CCTV so unarguable and they can’t brush it off.it made me realise side rooms actually feel less safe, if you’re in a bay with a male invasion (shorthand!) other people will also shout but in a side room if the door is closed no one will hear you scream (isn’t that a line from a film?) and pressing your nurse call button doesn’t usually elicit a quick response unfortunately as we all know! I had an emergency alarm button attached to me as well as as the standard nurse call button but didn’t get time to press it as it was sorted so quickly thankfully.but again I would have been slower than the average person even accounting for the delay due to shock. it’s very lucky I was in a side room with monitoring so if the security hadn’t been there it would have been noticed asap but it was a specialist ward, other side rooms aren’t like that. I don’t think side rooms are actually safer for women now unless the total zero men approach is implemented. but I know specialist wards will usually always have to be mixed as it’s not practical to two separate wards esp with all equipment. But i think these are where a lot of patients are probably more vulnerable (Q for knottys thread!) ironically. and it doesn’t stop male doctors like Upton. the thought of being in a side room with him now genuinely seriously gives me chills esp as doctors automatically close doors to protect patients privacy when they come in.

I do feel bad as i do believe this man had no ill intent - im not going NAMALT but the sad thing is it’s ALWAYS men that’s why women are afraid. My fave word atm seems to be irony - it’s ironic tho he is the one knocking down their house of cards and will probably end up making women safer. but it’s Peggy who started the knocking down so the credit is hers, he’s just the tool (literally )

anyway I’ll stop derailing - It’ll be a slow process but I’ll let you know the outcome of my complaint, how lucky it will have been captured on camera.

I hope you get a good result, @GCEpileptic.

Years ago I was in hospital and was put in a side room on the emergency surgery ward. There was another side room next to mine with a young man in it and he would stand in my open door staring at me, which made me extremely uncomfortable. Normally I'd have asked him to leave but I was too out of it to tell him to go away. Hearing your story reminded me of what happened and has made me think twice about women in hospital side rooms.

My then 18yr old DD was in a female bay in a mixed ward with just one other lady, who had dementia so didn’t know what was happening around her. The male toilet was right outside the bay and DD was in the bed by the open entrance to the bay. She woke up twice to different men standing looking at her before she stayed awake terrified for the rest of the night. She was on oxygen and a drip so unable to do anything other than press her buzzer.

If I remember correctly this was the admission from A&E ward which is why it will have been mixed but it was clearly unsafe.

edit to add I forgot to change to my regular name on these boards but long time lurker here, often tunnocks mentioner.

Gosh I’d never have considered all this. I just assume people are decent… Hot off the press a relevant WRN study on assaults on Scottish hospitals.

https://a86851fb-c226-400d-9bf4-401a61daaa40.usrfiles.com/ugd/a86851_baa510c051ec440bb36512c88b98f6d2.pdf

@KnottyAuty i can't get your link to open but that is essentially the issue, assuming people are decent, just isn't safeguarding or good enough.

Assuming people are decent is exactly how so much child abuse happened in the past.

Never assume.

Quite - but if they say single sex ward. You kind of expect, well, a single sex ward.

Try this link
https://www.womensrights.network/post/how-safe-are-our-scottish-hospitals

GCEpileptic ·

I'm sorry to read of your experience, even if it was "only" a confused male. I can see that it was a particular shock for you, in your current state. I wish you well with your complaint and hopefully, they will act to improve matters.

Not just female nurses in Scotland being forced to share spaces with male colleagues but also female children in care.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-14502831/Fury-Scotlands-care-watchdog-says-girls-care-share-rooms-boys-self-ID-female.html

I thought girls were taken into care to protect them from sexual abuse, not hand them gift-wrapped to potential male abusers every night.

Girls in care are very much gift wrapped for sexual abusers, as are boys as history tells us.

Yes, I'm aware of paedos hanging around outside care homes. You'd think that at least inside the care home the girls would not be handed over to boys every night.

I agree with what you say.

@334bu Holy Fuck!!!

@MNHQ please can we get a shock 😲 emoji added to the reactions available for posts? None of the existing ones seem appropriate for certain posts.

I thought kid in care had to have their own rooms. Just disgusting that girls who should have legal protection just don't have any.

Once again I'll pray 🙏 that Sandie Peggie comtinues to have the strength 💪 to push this all the way for every woman and girl in Scotland, if not the whole of the UK.

Thats horrific

Although the actual guidance appears to be more nuanced and they do mention risk assessment where the NHS didn’t. Haven’t had time to read it all

www.careinspectorate.com/images/documents/7101/Guidance%20for%20CYP%20service%20on%20the%20inclusion%20of%20transgender%20including%20non-binary%20young%20people.pdf

The problem with these risk assessments is that they will (if captured) do it as if there are two girls sharing the room, not a girl and a boy (with special girly feels) sharing a room.

We have seen this before with other assessments where the female version of the forms are used for males (with special lady feels).

I actually can't read that without crying. I was almost put into care as a child and my heart breaks for those girls

Horrendous. Who comes up with this crap and are they actually bona fide adults with at least half a brain?

I actually can’t bear to read it because I will feel the same way. This IS state-sanctioned abuse of girls! I’m beyond disgusted and dejected.