NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #23

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It is planned that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21
Thread 22: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5280174-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-22

I am friends with a woman who is recognised as an expert it fungi in this part of the world. Several species have been named after her. She's completely self taught, I think she didn't even finish high school. She now publishes in science journals. This is completely anecdotal, but I wonder if perhaps this is common in mycology? And so experts who also have fancy degrees need some other way of signalling their status? Which fluency in high-genderese would do perfectly. It often ses to function as a way of indicating that one has an expensive degree from a fancy university.

I’m very sorry that I’m also just too overwhelmed at the moment to help in any useful way, @KnottyAuty, but I did just quickly look up my local NHS Trust (Herts) and while they have the 9 protected characteristics listed correctly, including sex, it's buried almost as a throwaway remark right at the end of a long document. The headline comments trumpet their commitment to what they call an 'Equity' rather than an 'Equality, Diversity and Inclusion Strategy' - which they say is recognising that treating people equally is not always enough and that treating individuals may require different treatments based in their specific needs and circumstances to achieve an equal outcome.

I missed all the mushroom talk. Fungi aren't even in the same phylogenetic kingdom as humans. I mean clownfish are at least in the animalia with us but fungi are their entirely separate and distinct kingdom within the domain Eukarya.

I'm convinced it's a way for people to signal their supposed superiority and part of a progressive tribe - the Democrats in America are a prime example of this. Only the most educated could possibly understand gender and why men really can be women- if you can't see it you are clearly old fashioned and thick.

So people in certain sectors feel it shows them to be trustworthy. Academia, publishing, media, tech, the arts....they couldnt possibly be like ordinary people.

And so many young people are terrified of being "wrong". I had an argument with a guy on X who told me that uni students are pro trans rights because they have the chance to develop their minds with new ideas. I pointed out that even musical tastes at uni are pretty prescribed, and really, do engineering students investigate gender concepts? No, they follow the tribe for their own self preservation. And they don't want to be like their stupid parents.

They are taught about intersectionality and how being a white woman is being embedded in the patriarchy. So who cares if you are uncomfortable.

I was just about to say.... "Are mushrooms the new clownfish?" but Igneococcus beat me to it! You don't hear so much about clownfish these days.

Another article from the Sunday papers: https://www.sundaypost.com/fp/polices-changing-room-policy-for-trans-officers-may-be-illegal/

Not the best, but haven't noticed it mentioned.

Is knotty auty's suggested dei audit something the WRN vould help with?

That's a good point for the review - thanks - how many pages into the document is it before the 9 characteristics are mentioned?

Mention of Equity actually sounds quite good - for example it's the mechanism by which we have ramps at the front of buildings even though the majority don't need them. It doesn't however justify discrimination against all able bodied people which is why both entrances remain as close together as possible and near the front of the building...

Go David Kennedy!!

David Kennedy, General Secretary of the Scottish Police Federation said: “Officers need designated changing rooms, not choose as you wish. Health and safety regulations are clear on this matter, and if anyone wishes to complain they should be able to do so without fear of retribution.

“If Police Scotland want to be politically correct, they should provide three separate changing facilities.”

Maybe - that was my first idea but I am possibly in the post-Peggie backlog having only recently tried to sign up... as soon as I am in I will ask!

how many pages into the document is it before the 9 characteristics are mentioned?

It's a 16-page document and as far as I can see (albeit not reading super-super-closely, but I think this is right) the 9 protected characteristics are mentioned in the glossary of terms used in the policy on page……16.

(MN dei sleuthing - is ai any use?, plus volunteer)

@knottyAuty I'd like to take a divi of the task.

AI is not giving me comprehensive reliable results, its like getting blood out of a stone. I conclude that it may be useful for initial top level trawling to find entry level pages for trusts following a common website format

eg:

'can you find the policy page for each trust listed on https://www.england.nhs.uk/london/ccg-trust/ ' (limited, with waffle)

'try harder, you are an ai' (gave 12 out of 18 - general policy pages)

'search each policy page you just found for 1) the dei policy 2) the correspondence email address' (email address results poor; found the 'about' equality pages for 12)

'there are 18 acute trusts listed, you presented the dei policy for 12. Can you find the dei policies for the remaining 6' (found 4 more)

So yeah, with careful query framing, ai can do some of the elementary legwork, but unlikely to provide comprehensive answers at this stage, with this engine.
(I'd be interested to hear about improved queries or better engines).

OK, like Knotty, I have woken up and decided to go on a mission! I've been reflecting and am planning to write to Nicola Ranger, General Secretary and Chief Executive of the Royal College of Nursing. Would you vipers please have a look over my draft and add your thoughts and anything you think I have forgotten?

Dear Ms Ranger,

I am writing to you as a registered nurse and long-standing member of the Royal College of Nursing to express my disappointment and concern regarding the College’s decision not to support Mrs Sandie Peggie in her recent Employment Tribunal case against NHS Fife and Dr Upton.

Mrs Peggie is a highly experienced and respected senior Accident and Emergency nurse with a 30-year career in nursing. It is deeply troubling that following her raising legitimate concerns about a male colleague, Dr Upton, using the same single-sex changing room as her, she was suspended and left to face a protracted legal battle without the backing of her professional body.
Given the importance of safeguarding the dignity, privacy, and safety of women in our overwhelmingly female profession — as well as protecting the rights of female patients — I had expected the RCN to be at the forefront of defending and advocating for the retention of single-sex spaces, as provided for under the Equality Act 2010 and the 1992 Workplace Regulations.

The failure to support Mrs Peggie not only sends a disheartening message to female nurses but also raises significant concerns about whether the RCN remains committed to championing these vital protections.

I would be grateful if you could provide reassurance that the RCN is fully committed to upholding the legal right to single-sex spaces for staff and patients, and that the College will take steps to robustly defend members who raise concerns in line with professional standards and the law.

Thank you for your time, and I look forward to your response.

@CarefulN0w that letter is very good. Polite and clear.i
I love your last paragraph, but I’m wondering if they are slippery enough to not answer because they didn’t know they were questions. I might therefore begin the paragraph with. Please answer the following 2 questions.Then “ Is the RCN…..Will the College….
@KnottyAuty I would be useless at conducting an audit, or I would help.

That's a very good point Zebra. Totally agree about the slipperyness and I definitely want an answer to the second question.

How about:

What reassurance will you provide me with that the RCN is fully committed to upholding the legal right to single-sex spaces for staff and patients? Will the College take steps to robustly defend members who raise concerns in line with professional standards and the law?

I think stressing that it's the law is a good point. The law seems to have been thrown out of the window.

would love to volunteer to help but sadly brain not up to it atm (and ironically im in hospital and their wifi is shit

can provide virtual and cake to the MN sleuths though. Feel we need a name for this group…

Not sure if any of you might be interested but the HSE have a whistleblowing page on their website:

contact.hse.gov.uk/where-in-uk/

You might consider making an entry something like this?

"Following news coverage of the Employment Tribunal of Sandy Peggie versus NHS Fife, I understand that the Victoria Hospital in Kircaldy has not been meeting its duty to provide single sex changing rooms for its staff, as required under Workplace (Health Safety & Welfare) Regulations 1992 and the Equality Act. The EHRC Equalities Regulator wrote an open letter to NHS Fife on this matter which reminds the trust of their legal obligations so it is not just me who is concerned about this: www.equalityhumanrights.com/media-centre/news/our-letter-chief-executive-nhs-fife. I should be grateful if you would please let me know what action you will be taking on this matter?"

Looks great

If it were me I would add a sentence in to say something like - I am concerned about the effect this might have on the profession; anecdotally I have heard of some warning their daughters against nursing due to this issue.

If you want evidence I can tell you that I have been discussing this with DD this week. It's the sort of thing that people won't talk about and will just do it quietly because that is how people avoid coercion. They may be happy to assist with the existential concerns of trans women - but maybe not if it has an existential threat on their organisation?

You'll need the postal address:
Victoria Hospital
Hayfield Rd, Kirkcaldy KY2 5AH

(vipers dei audit)
@KnottyAuty might be worth a separate thread to avoid cluttering up the main one, even though its related.

(newbie) ps : why is it vipers?

whistleblowing seems a good tactic, along with the sleuthing and actually pulling these lip service NHS gender bullshit policies apart. See all I can contribute is an urge to make jokes about private dicks. Mumsnetters dismember NHS gender (and I want to type bollocks on the end there I really am useless)

more tea anyone?

I'm thinking this is the one page audit list - would go on an online survey page so that details could be scooped out into a single spreadsheet with minimal effort - too much? or sounds do-able? I'm thinking I could probably do one a day/evening plodding along with it?

Contact Details:
Name of Trust
Name of Chief executive:
Postal Address:
CEO Contact Email Address:
Document Download:
Website address for DEI policy:
Website address for EqIA for Changing Room Policy:
Website address for other relevant policy:
Date web pages accessed/documents downloaded:
Basic Details of Relevant Policy
Name of Changing Room Policy Document or EqIA (or other relevant doc if specific policy or risk assessment not found):
Author:
Date of publication:
Date of next review:
Total number of pages:
Policy Audit against Equality Act 2010
Reference to protected characteristics: tick box for all 9 with terms that specifically match the EA terms
Characteristics listed which are similar to the EA terms but not the same.
Characteristics listed which bear no resemblance to the EA terms
Page number within document when characteristics first listed/defined:
Single sex changing room policy directly addressed/mentioned: y/n, cut and paste wording and give page number
Policy on trans gender changing room use - y/n, cut and paste wording and give page number

Here is the list of all the NHS Trusts - I will divvy up later into blocks
https://www.england.nhs.uk/publication/nhs-provider-directory/

@KnottyAuty if you start a new thread people could name change and join that thread which would keep it separate from their normal account if they don't want to risk being identified to their main name