NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #23

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It is planned that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21
Thread 22: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5280174-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-22

Oh yes…

Tell me what this plan entails.

they don‘t want to take what they see as a victim stance.

They don't understand that victims don't get a choice about becoming victims, it's imposed on them by an assailant.

Women are physically weaker than men and we are vulnerable to forced pregnancy. Recognising this isn't taking a victim stance, it's recognising reality.

The same people wouldn't dare suggest that a wheelchair user demanding a ramp was taking a victim stance and should toughen up and use the stairs.

I’ll Dm you

Edited - i can’t Dm you - message me!

DMs are disabled site-wide after the child sexual abuse images trolling a few weeks back.

(guy's and st thomas nhs trust equality and diversity policy report in ET)

It looks like it is a policy in developement which the ET or Sex Matters got hold of, based on this line 'The trust’s transgender policy, seen by The Telegraph'.

Google search 'guy's and st thomas equality and diversity policy' led to
www.guysandstthomas.nhs.uk/about-us/equality-diversity-and-inclusion/lgbt-inclusion-statement which contains the paragraph

'We're developing a policy and guidance on supporting trans and non-binary patients and staff, and are taking positive action to update our Trust policies and procedures to be more inclusive of LGBT+ people. To support this, we'll be launching a Trust-wide education and training plan which is designed to embed inclusive behaviour and practices into the fabric of our organisation.
Progress Pride Badges'

Oh FFS
How repulsive can some people be?

oh well - forget the attempt at being clandestine….

I’ve got a list of all the NHS Trusts.
We take a few each and download their DEI policy and search for the EqIAs (unlikely to exist).
We get the DEI email address for each trust.

I’ll do a one page proforma with a few basic checks (eg are all 9 protected characteristics listed (spoiler - in the first 3 I checked none got this right), are the definitions correct? Do they meet EHRC guidelines? Etc). Nothing too onerous so should be quick to fill out the audit form for each trust.

We aim to get all the reviews done for end of June. Then set up a timed email to return their policy with comments copied to the EHRC all to go out in a burst about 3-5 days before the Peggie trial. No threats or anything horrible but just pointing out the unlawful areas and a reminder that someone who sanctions/publishes an unlawful policy could be held personally accountable as an ET Respondent… just the facts really. Then it’s up to them to decide how committed they are when they’ve got skin in the game

my job involves putting my neck on the line so I’m used to it - but I expect policy people won’t have felt that nervous feeling much before and they won’t like it

In my last place, over the last few years I worked there, the union was involved in collective negotiations on:

• annual pay awards
• contract renegotiation over the back-to-office question (new contract terms.for everyone and a change to the way expenses were paid)
• redundancy consultations for at least half a dozen departments, making sure processes were followed correctly, raising alternatives to redundancy, and offering advice and representation to those at risk (for larger scale consultations this gave some.cover for non-members as well)
• reviews of multiple policies including covid security, annual leave, maternity and adoption, miscarriage and stillbirth, bullying and harassment, several others I've forgotten - every time either a policy or a law relating to the policy changed (always found something - mistakes, omissions, contradictions, explanations that made no sense, and gaps in the equality impact assessments - most often falure to consider women or disabilities). Also lobbying for new policies on areas not already covered.
• pension seminars and other financial advice (this was a mix of group and individual)

And individual:

• rebanding of posts that were being paid at too low a grade, or where the job description or responsibilities had been significantly changed
• disciplinary and grievance cases (loads of different reasons, there was a high threshold for covering legal action but a low one for general advice, support and representation - the only cases I knew about being turned down were when the person wasn't a member and tried to join after the incident)

That's just the stuff I knew about in our branch. There was also a national perks scheme offering discounts on various things - shopping, insurance, holidays...

Oh, and free yoga classes.

Barrister in trans case: You’ve got a willy so you’re a man, innit?

www.thetimes.com/article/903b54c8-19eb-451e-8bbc-a9b429a1139e?shareToken=b3c494bbd26d7d15666630533997087f

I'm potentially up for this.

I can help. But I wonder if this is something AI could do. Not an expert, but it is the kind of dull searching a machine would do effectively.

I'd be interested in this. I wondered if we did the ground work if a journalist might take it on for an in depth piece?

This is my experience too @DontTellMeWhat2Do I wish I could PM but it's currently disabled. I keep my head down.

@KnottyAuty I wonder what the odds are on finding any DEI policy - anywhere - that actually upholds SSS!

Between slim and no bloody chance!

I looked up my employer's trans policy (as it's called; there's a separate DEI one) and it says that it would make transpeople uncomfortable for be forced into using toilets / changing rooms / showers(!) of their sex, so they can choose which to use.

I'm considering contacting them to ask if they know it's unlawful.

It doesn’t necessarily follow that the private backer would wish to fund an action against the RCN or other unions.

(MN sleuths review nhs trust dei policies - use ai?)

after a v quick try, may be useful with careful crafting of questionss.

Using free gemini ai

'fetch links dei policies for nhs trusts: fife, guys and st thomas, norfolk' gets general links to policies

'how many nhs trusts in uk? is there a hierarchy?'

'what are the nhs trusts in scotland' - gave a list of the boards

'what are the nhs trusts in england' referred me to wikipedia & other sites with lists

@KnottyAuty I'll happily take a wedge of the work.

Are you ok to allot specific trusts so we don't duplicate?

@INeedAPensieve I got out of the public sector, but as my background until recently was HR (DEI), I keep my head down to maintain my network connections. I may one day go back to the public sector because despite its many many faults, it has the best pay and job security. I also name change on a a regular basis to keep that anonymity too!

I will see if i can find NHSTrust policies in my locality as i can think of three. I might need advice on how to do links etc

@KnottyAuty, I can take on some of the sleuthing. Is there a sensible way to divvy them up?

Now that would be of interest to a journalist I’d imagine?!

Thanks so much for showing an interest!@selffellatingouroborosofhate @WeMeetInFairIthilien @Cismyfatarse @FarriersGirl @Skyellaskerry @teawamutu @TwoLoonsAndASprout @Bannedontherun

I’ll dig out the list I found and then will split it up into chunks/groups and then you can say which group you might want to take on.

If we can get a reliable AI recipe for getting the policy and email addresses that would be great - @SternlyMatthews could you check whether your Gemini method actually gives correct results? When I tried ChatGPT on uni courses for DS it gave a lot of incorrect info….

By the end of today I’ll also set up an online form with some draft questions for the audit for you to have a comment on - we should agree what we are going to record beforehand to avoid doubling up on the work?

I feel this is slightly like when the US got Al Capone (?) on tax matters - tedious and procedural but legally effective

@KnottyAuty I am supportive but right now I’m really sorry but I won’t be able to be part of the action team 😢