NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #23

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It is planned that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21
Thread 22: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5280174-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-22

Would you consider including the right for patients to request a same sex practitioner for their (intimate) care? There are specific clauses which cover this in EA2010. It’s not just about single sex spaces. It’s about patient-centred care and working within the law on consent. That’s the one omission that came to mind as I read your draft.

Can’t see that this has been posted yet:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-14477077/CLAIRE-METHVEN-OBRIEN-week-wave-gender-wildfires-politicians-fail-act-doom-loop-equality-whack-mole.html

The reason I’m linking it now is I came across it on twix, and the comment from the person (Scott Wortley) who posted it was:

”This is an important column, and the observations on equality impact assessments are spot on. One of my hobbies is reading equality impact statements, and there is an assumed hierarchy of protected characteristics in many, which is not reflected in the equality act.” [bolding mine].

@KnottyAuty and the DEI vipers, this angle is probably worth keeping an eye out for…

Let's be careful here. CarefulN0w has written a good letter as it stands. Tinkering around too much with it might turn it into one which is written by a committee!

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5291237-nhs-policy-audit-working-party

@KnottyAuty I have just done a very quick trawl of my local NHS trust EDI policy. The main policy does not look too bad however beneath it lies a separate policy for trangender and non binary staff. This includes gems such as a specific personal transitioning plan for any member of staff who goes to their manager saying this is what they want. And beneath this special policy is a very lengthy set of guidance giving permissions to access single sex spaces etc. Most worryingly it seems to indicate that patients would not be informed of clinicians actual sex if they asked and their refusal to be treated could be deemed abuse of staff. EQuIA template also worse than useless as it conflates sex with gender.
There is general EDI guidance beneath the main policy but the trans one looks to be the only protected characteristic given its own special policy and guidelines. Feeling slightly queasy as this is where I would be treated😨

Gosh - this is an article to the Dundee boy with a hidden camera in the loos mentioned in this DM article: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cj49ywpw9x5o
Had never heard of that one either [skin crawls emoticon]

Excellent article.

Drill-down, and what you will find is that a surreptitious denial of women’s basic human rights is now a feature, not a bug, that pervades all layers and instruments of public bureaucracy.

Claire Methven O’Brian is one of my new sheros. She is a killer writer.

Claire Methven O-Brian's article is excellent.

Edited to omit a comment about HSE posters - I referred to the wrong thing

private dicks

If men were all keeping their dicks private, we wouldn't be in this mess.

I agree. And it looks to me, and this is just a hunch, that she's absolutely fucking fuming

I see that Naomi is in Court again today, arguing in closed session (like with Sandie about the application for anonymity of witnesses) Maya/Sex Matters are intervening.
https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/newman-vs-the-metropolitan-police

If it goes public I'll do a thread

@Datun I agree she seems justifiably furious at how her colleagues have not been fulfilling their duties

And arguably - my wild theory following on from the Cass conclusions - that if autism had had better support to start with, the autistic population seeking help for trans issues would have been significantly smaller

@KnottyAuty YES 💯 when DD was diagnosed with ASD (after 12 years) CAMHS immediately discharged us because autism isn't a mental illness. But the reason we (and, I suspect, most others) wanted a diagnosis was because there were problems. Zero support for autism. Instant popularity and bucketloads of funding if you're trans. Make it make sense someone.

And rightly so. Chocolate teapots… etc

@Chrysanthemum5

I followed a link from one of these threads and ended up on a trans positive website. There were lists of things that it was suggested should be on the NHS. Including hair removal - did make me giggle?! Maybe getting my leg wax and beard zapping on the NHS is an interesting thought. I thought battling body hair was an innate part of being a woman?

Unfortunately biological women are not given help with this you must be the special male kind of woman to be allowed hair removal

Apparently we would just have to say we are non binary... might be worth signing up if SP loses her case and self ID to all services becomes a thing

I believe detransitioners aren't entitled to hair removal on the NHS, although I'd love to be wrong.

Scottish Tories making hay on this still: archive.is/AGB0P

And more here - this time with added Edinburgh University. https://archive.is/o7Dsp

(attentive readers will remember Katie Nicoll Baines from previous Edinburgh Uni instalments)

@prh47bridge currently involved in a thread that is researching the policies of NHS policies on Trans rights and single sex provision.

A thought came to me (as someone who is only a past student at law) , that public authorities that require that service users and staff should adhere to pro nouns usage, recognition of gender identities, etc,

Are acting “ultra vires” as the law does not provide that staff and members of the public are obliged to do this.

And if i am correct then all policies that i have thus far encountered requiring patients and members of staff to adhere to such policies are susceptible to a judicial review. In particular non binary and cross dressers which have been mentioned in my local hospital policy

Is this possible because i am up for a challenge.

It's certainly very good to see the tide turning with the papers keeping up the pressure too.

https://www.holyrood.com/inside-politics/view,naomi-cunningham-im-fuelled-by-rage-and-ive-been-lucky
(sorry if already posted)

I see the article says that the university is in a financial black hole and that job cuts are likely. Well there’s one that could go. I see that person is a geneticist, WTF.