NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #23

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It is planned that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21
Thread 22: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5280174-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-22

I dunno. IANAL, but I would have thought that paying a union sub fell some way short of entering into a cast-iron guaranted contract to receive legal support in all cases. I thought trades unions operated on a "We'll do our best to help you, but no guarantees" basis. But I could be way out.

This is astounding that they would choose to release this right now. Are they living under a rock? Why not wait until the outcomes of the two tribunals? It’s staggering.

<a class="break-all" href="https://archive.ph/o/SZSmf/www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/11/26/hospitals-record-newborn-babies-gender-identity-rather-than/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Guy’s and St Thomas’ trust’s new transgender equality policy tells all staff they must refer to everyone with the pronoun of their choice, even if they do not believe in <a class="break-all" href="https://archive.ph/o/SZSmf/www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/01/06/nhs-patients-asked-genders-sexual-preferences-religion/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">gender ideology.

Really? Really?

Are they not aware that they've just opened the vault door, handed over a pile of guns, handcuffed themselves to a radiator and said, "Please, take the money. It's all yours"?

"Sorry if this is a silly question but why do you need a union if they don’t represent your needs? What’s the consequence of not being a member? Or protesting by not paying for a year?"

It's a good question. I guess I feel exposed in terms of options/advice/support for every other issue that might arise. I've relied on union support in the past for other issues and it made a huge difference to the outcome. Not having that makes me very nervous & it's that reality that keeps me a member. But I know it's useless for anything that happens in terms of single sex provision. So it's not a cover all membership - it would be dependent on the personal view of the union rep & that's a lottery with my union.

I would move my subs to any union (covering my area of employment) that made clear they uphold/support women's rights. If I was a nurse or in education, it's good there are options. But I've not seen anything covering my area yet.

Maybe the EHRC needs to write to all NHS boards, or pretty much every public sector organisation?

I think we can complain to them?

I was a union rep and although I never handled any tribunals, I recall being told by our employment team that a case has to have at least 51% chance of success to be supported. In the event of discrimination cases, you have 3 months minus one day to make a claim and this dates from the last incident something happened. Some things in a claim could be 'out of time' whilst others could proceed. You can obtain additional time by going through ACAS early conciliation. I'm not sure what the deadlines are for non discrimination cases though. Also, even though you have a short timeline in which to submit your claim, it could take years before it actually reaches tribunal, due to the number of cases they recieve, the amount of back and forth between parties (to try to avoid court) and also the sharing of bundles etc. IANAL but this is my best memory of what I was told.

edited to add: I think the fear of not being protected is what makes people stay and leads the unions to wrongly assume women are happy with them. Things wont change unless people leave but where else can they go for union support? Maybe affinity but I dont know enough about that union. I am a member of the free speech union though they dont offer the same as a TU. You can also go to ACAS yourselves and even tribunal yourself, but that is obviously risky.

Sure, but a blanket refusal to take an entire class of cases for ideological reasons isn't a "best efforts" approach.

I also wonder how one goes about setting up a TU? How did the darlington nurses manage it? Maybe there could be a FWR union? Why don't our Sheroes like NC, HJ, SP, MF, JKR, FWS etc all team up to create one?

I think it amounts to discrimination on the grounds of a protected belief

The one thing over the years that I've always questioned was why WPUK didn't do anything in this area. I suspect there was more loyalty towards the unions than the women left exposed by their ideological capture.

Interestingly, I saw this on X

https://x.com/hannahberrelli/status/1897672347831697620?s=46

"Based gender critical Marxist who did security for WPUK."

This is posted, quoting another post that states:

"Huge congratulations to Eddie Dempsey as the new general secretary of the RMT.

Very smart guy, and an outstanding communicator."

I think the extent of capture across unions is going to be one of the last areas to see the writing on the wall on trans rights. Unless a court forces the issue. Mostly because (IMO) unions are indifferent/hostile towards women's rights & trans rights feeds into the rampant misogyny in unions. Just my view.

Yes, I don't disagree with that at all. It's surely clear that unions should be doing much more if they have any idea of their original purpose; to support their members. I simply meant that I'm not convinced that a legal challenge on this point would be winnable.

[edited to add last sentence]

A spokesman for Guy’s and St Thomas’ said: “Transgender staff, like all our staff, deserve to be treated with kindness and respect in line with our Trust values. As an inclusive employer, it is important we ensure everyone is supported regardless of sexual orientation or gender identity.”

Hmmm there appears to be a missing final sentence "unless they are women, in which case they can get stuffed, zero support, no respect and a total lack of kindness for them".

If we all band together and do a small amount of paperwork each we could send each trust an audit of their DEI policy any cc the EHRC… just 3 days before Peggie Part 2 kicks off. Then IB goes on the stand and they realise next time it might be them? The empathy gap will snap shut faster than a Scotsman’s wallet

Visiting my DS and DiL this weekend in London, we walked past Guys Hospital this afternoon. I'd already mentioned gender issues, as I sometimes do 😀(my DS takes the view, like many, I think, of 'Yeah, I don't disagree, Dad, but is it such a big deal? There's nothing about it in the Guardian. Aren't you a obssessed'?). Wasn't aware of this at the time.

GrumpyMenopausalWombWielder · Today 21:04

It's a good question. I guess I feel exposed in terms of options/advice/support for every other issue that might arise. I've relied on union support in the past for other issues and it made a huge difference to the outcome. Not having that makes me very nervous & it's that reality that keeps me a member. But I know it's useless for anything that happens in terms of single sex provision. So it's not a cover all membership - it would be dependent on the personal view of the union rep & that's a lottery with my union.

I'm sad to say that I'm unsurprised to read that, but I'm saddened and angry on your behalf. Unions are for their membership, not nebulous rubbish for lobby groups.

Possibly rather busy with their current work load?!

I think that a lot of DEI types take the view that women are doing fine and we are the oppressors because they don‘t want to take what they see as a victim stance. I have a couple of pro trans friends who are very “girl power”/“women are strong”/we don’t take any nonsense unlike our silly old fashioned mums etc etc types. The kind who don’t understand why you’d not take your kit off in mixed sex cos that’s just prudish or boring/due to religious brainwashing … they’re so cool and hip, they go to nudist beaches y know and it’s all fine and dandy. My theory is that they secretly feel a bit superior to women like me who they feel sorry for - it’s almost as though they think any fear of male violence or harassment is all in my head and what’s more that I’m actually a bit up myself thinking anyone would want to stare at me getting changed (I mean, she’s not THAT attractive surely ?!) And they’re so strong , yknow, they’d just fight off any man who tried to attack them. Y know like Gal Gadot can. Very weird. I also believe they quite like feeling secretly superior to trans identifying males who they actually pity / like to feel good about “protecting”. Bit of a ramble there, I know, but I really have struggled to understand it and the lack of empathy for other women.

Ive also come across this attitude before. Usually young women, but not always.

I'm hardly the one to judge, but I do think those attitudes have been around for a long time. They are certainly very reminiscent of the views of my friendship group (male and female) when I was a kid donkeys' years ago. We were too cool for all that uptight shit about nudity. And how right that seemed at the time. And those young girls I knew then are now the mothers of the girls we're talking about.

Hmm, I know. I remember the same. And here we are now, eh? Oh to be so naive.

It’s interesting isn’t it? You’ve clearly worked in places where union membership is the default. So it’s difficult to imagine not having it - but in reality what do you get from them? If it’s true they won’t cover accusations involving certain conduct (without first even establishing if it’s true?!) and then gaming the other 50% because they don’t have the resources? Well that doesn’t sound like a service worth paying for. So what do they give you? (Genuine question)

I’ve always worked in the private sector and never needed union help. I pay a bit extra on my house insurance to cover “legal” as my just in case back up. It doesn’t cost much at all - I’ll need to check if it includes tribunal etc. but as I’m my own boss I can disagree with myself as much as I like!

I really recognise this amongst younger women of the 'be kind, they only want to pee' persuasion.

It's usually either that or an achingly earnest over-preoccupation with not hurting anyone's feelings if they're ostensibly from a 'vulnerable minority' (even if in reality they're a white middle-class male from the privileged, middle classes who somehow magically becomes 'vulnerable' if he puts on a dress).

Wasnt it great?! Not as much fun once you’ve seen a few things go wrong and find out people don’t always play nice

I think the MW case really highlighted how racism is less of a problem than sexism nowadays - in the third sector at least.