NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #23

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It is planned that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21
Thread 22: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5280174-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-22

I get annoyed about that too @KnottyAuty CAMHS told me they could not help DD as she was the first child they had dealt with who didn't accept her autism diagnosis. Which obviously is rubbish loads of people don't accept it initially.

But there is all the money in the world for children who don't accept the reality of their own biology.

Gosh I had no idea. That’s disturbing.
DS is in mainstream and he gets £15k allocated via EHCP on top of the standard pupil allocation of about £6k (?). I’ve no idea where that money goes. There are TAs who assist in some lessons but their salary is almost an overhead as they help lots of different pupils. There’s no SALT, no therapy, no support. Just sit in the learning base isolated at break time. He is academically able and in theory could do well but he wants to die. Apparently his suicidal thoughts don’t count. But if he said he was trans they would. Fucking outrageous

If Sandie wins her case I really hope she sues RCN for refusing to represent her. Surely one of the main functions of a trade union is to support and represent the employee if an employer is breaking the law!
If Fife are proven to have broken the law then they have failed in their duty to Sandie and her membership fees have been a waste of money

"If Sandie wins her case I really hope she sues RCN for refusing to represent her. Surely one of the main functions of a trade union is to support and represent the employee if an employer is breaking the law! If Fife are proven to have broken the law then they have failed in their duty to Sandie and her membership fees have been a waste of money"

I think this could be another layer this case could unravel, although I think we're putting a lot on SP's shoulder hoping the union argument is finally tackled.

I'm not a nurse but I am in one of the unions that keeps churning out absolute shite on trans rights, claiming positions on the sex vs gender issue that fails to seek membership support. I've challenged them on this, but got nothing but waffles in response.

I'm so resentful of paying my subs to this Union and would switch to a union who stated they'd recognise women's rights & would support a woman in SP's position. I've been waiting years for this but as much as the Darlington Nurses Union is a great 1st step, they're not (as far as I know) going beyond the remit of representing nurses.

If SP's case goes further & challenges their abdication of responsibility towards SP when she needed it, I'll be delighted to see it. But I also recognise there's a lot of pressure on SP to solve a lot of the problems embedded in unions, government funded organisations like the NHS & others who all collectively have decided women's rights are not worth considering.

It would be nice to see the Union be pro-active in the aftermath of the outcome of SP's case instead of forcing her to have to think about going further. I won't hold my breath though.

Sorry if this is a silly question but why do you need a union if they don’t represent your needs? What’s the consequence of not being a member? Or protesting by not paying for a year?

The ehc money finds the TAs. At secondary level they need subject specific TAs so they pool the money and use it for these TAs. Our daughter couldn't access the curriculum at mainstream and she got the specialist school. But it is swings and roundabouts - you solve one problem and create another.

If you’re in education and simply want legal cover and support with no politics attached, Edapt is very good.

https://www.edapt.org.uk/

@GrumpyMenopausalWombWielder
Much as I'd love her to sue them I completely agree it's a lot on one persons shoulders and totally understandable if Sandie just wanted this tribunal concluded and then step away.

As a Nurse and RCN member I am so ashamed and angry that they didn't represent SP. If they don't change their stance after this, I think there may well be a break away movement.

I have no knowledge or experience of this union, but if I were looking for one to join, a recommendation from Naomi Cunningham's roommate and fellow employment barrister Daniel Barnett would be a good place to start.

workaffinity.co.uk

Trying again with the link to the union.

I'm a member, I switched to Affinity after UCU let Kathleen Stock down so badly. They offer legal protection but they don't do collective pay bargaining so it's not always an easy decision.

I wouldn't expect Sandie Peggie to take on the RCN, I don't see what benefit there would be for her. But there are plenty of other nursing cases coming through and one of them might decide it was worthwhile including the RCN as well. Or the RCN might just realise that illegal discrimination is not a good look for them either.

Or the RCN might just realise that illegal discrimination is not a good look for them either.

I can only hope. At the moment they seem in thrall to those recently arrived from Malaga. Lots of positive articles about what it's like to be a Transwomen nurse. Obviously, with no patients considered.

SP has joined the Darlington Union, iirc.

As a general point it would be worth challenging a union as a warning to all of them. However, there’s no reason for this to be another SP fight. Curbing the RCN would send a high-profile message that might attract a good amount of sunlight but Unison would also be an excellent target.

I would happily contribute to a fundraiser to remind unions of their duty to all those who pay their dues and have a grievance within the law.

This is a remarkably good article. Amidst all the obfuscation and downright concealment of the Grauniad and the BBC the Morning Star is clear, well informed and doesn't pull its punches about the responsibilities and failures of both management and unions. I haven't been a communist since I was 15 but maybe it's time to revisit that.

Conxis · Today 14:34

If Sandie wins her case I really hope she sues RCN for refusing to represent her. Surely one of the main functions of a trade union is to support and represent the employee if an employer is breaking the law!

I think that she and the Darlington nurses would have an excellent case for suing their unions. I wrote suggesting that last year, with an unusual case I know of.

I met a biker at a bike rally and we were discussing recovery companies. He'd been with the RAC for 20 (?) years, with a 60's BMW bike, never had a breakdown and when he finally did, they refused to recover the bike, as they didn't support such old bikes.

He had to pay a local firm to do it.

He took them to court and got every penny he'd paid them, plus the cost of the recovery.

If Sandie wins her case then possibly anyone who's complained to their union and been told it's lawful for male bodied trans women to be in female changing rooms and there's nothing they can do could sue for wrongful advice?
One of the things people pay their union fees for is correct employment advice

Going back to the union point, DH was in a public sector union closed shop that made a decision 20+ years ago not to support members accused of racism in disciplinaries. Whilst I think racism is abhorrent - and was an issue in the service - I was always uncomfortable with this stance as it seemed to be counter to the whole innocent until proven premise and opened up the possibility of malicious allegations.

I can't help but feel that supporting trans people at the deficit of women has roots in these sorts of decisions.

Totally agree - innocent until proven guilty

I don't know if this might deserve its own thread

https://archive.ph/SZSmf

www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2025/03/09/hospital-trust-trans-employees-toilets-equality-challenge/

I’ve no idea where that money goes.

It's data about your son? Subject Access Request.

It's data about SEND provision to multiple kids other than your son? FOI request.

Try both tactics.

So basically taking members' subs and then denying them the representation they were paying for? Surely that's breach of contract?

Yes, this is asking a lot of Mrs Peggie. Unlike the rest of us, she does have a private backer though, so doesn't have to fundraise like the rest of us would.

Hard agree with this from the comments section, by "Shirley Webster".

A Trust openly trying to decriminalise voyeurism and indecent exposure. Frightening for women. Time to do a deep dive into the hard drives of every single NHS sraff [sic] member who's written or promoted this dangerous policy - especially senior staff.

selffellatingouroborosofhate · Today 19:5

So basically taking members' subs and then denying them the representation they were paying for? Surely that's breach of contract?

I'd definitely say so, even taking money under false pretences.