NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #23

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It is planned that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21
Thread 22: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5280174-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-22

Naomi Cunningham represents a lot of important GC cases. Whenever we donate to a crowdfunder to Sarah Summers @IAmSarah "Help Sarah’s Legal Challenge to Secure Female Only Rape Crisis Therapy" or Urusla Doyle "Hounded out of my job in publishing" we're not just helping them we're also supporting Naomi Cunnigham to keep doing the job she loves 🙂Sites like Crowdjustice often list the barristers' names.

I think Naomi Cunningham is also representing the two SEEN civil servants, Andreas Mueller and Elspeth Duemmer-Wrigley, who are being sued along with their employer, Defra group, for believing in the immutability of sex.

The Scotttish Government have finally agreed to meet with feminist campaign groups -

https://www.thetimes.com/article/d11ab5e7-195a-4432-b3d0-412a3b080404?shareToken=a3f5f5075679183faca8dedb25f386ea

FWS have been trying to meet with the SG since 2019. It's only now, due to the tide turning and public focus on it, that they've agreed to do so.

Toilet & shower policy also comes up in Ursula Doyle's case. Hachette also discriminated against me (and all women working for them) by introducing a trans-inclusion policy which explicitly allows men who say they are women to use women’s toilets and shower facilities. I am challenging this policy and hope to show that this is not compliant with the law.

When Ursula Doyle queried the policy the HR director said that women could use single user toilets (on another floor) or disabled facilities instead. https://thecritic.co.uk/how-i-was-hounded-out-of-publishing/

Hachette wrote their “Trans Inclusion and Transitioning at Work” policy seemingly without reference to the Equality Act 2010. There seems to be a lot that about in HR - not looking at the Equality Act, or getting ahead of it, as well as just plain not understanding it. NHS Fife are certainly not alone!

(Link to MN thread about Ursual Doyle's case:
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5290287-i-was-hounded-out-of-publishing-i-was-persona-non-grata-for-publishing-material-girls )

I remember with the GRR and how the various SNP and Green fuckwits spokes people would always trot out the same fib tired line about this being the most consulted about piece of legislation ever! Bigot! Now I'm seeing it put to the lie by the fact of someone finally at least giving the impression of listening to women who, all along, have not been wheeshting and have been trying to voice their serious concerns.

Thank you for your post, DontTellMeWhat2Do, don't worry about it being long - you have a valuable story to tell about what it is like to work in a completely 'captured' organisation. It's valuable because - just like the poster who screenshot the Times headline before it was changed - we need to record the facts and 'keep the receipts'.

Because anyone who has experienced gaslighting knows how it works:
You're exaggerating. It was never that bad. That never happened. We never claimed that. You're making stuff up. You must have a nasty mind if you think we'd ever do such things.

So as the TRA tide ebbs, which fingers crossed is what is happening, they are going to start denying that this irrational dystopian mindset that captured so many parts of society really happened like that...

DARVO* starts with 'deny' and first hand accounts like yours are the defence against it.

• 'deny, attack, and reverse victim and offender'

agreed! I’ve certainly come to think of the money and paperwork angle as very powerful levers.

I’ve set myself some homework - I need some helpers please?!?

Who is up for some data mining?

to go through stonewalls accounts online with the charity commission and download all the PDFs. Bind them into a single document in date order. Set up a spreadsheet and enter all the figures from the accounts from public bodies? Maybe also split by UK region?

if we all agreed which years to do in advance then we would easily have it by the time Peggie 2 kicks off and press attention will be back.

The financials will peak a lot more peeps because I think the numbers will be shocking and dwarf the legal fees that people are muttering about now

anyone up for it?

I hope that someone has been well and truly told off for the initial headline

The he/him/they's are raging

Shame.

https://x.com/ForWomenScot/status/1898676778454892556

if I were on twix id post this:

Firstly to show how most people including most women are kind and moderate to trans people and happy to accommodate:
https://www.moreincommon.org.uk/our-work/research/britons-and-gender-identity

and this:

Secondly that all the aggressive stuff calling people transphobes & bigots is starting to harden public opinion:
https://yougov.co.uk/politics/articles/51545-where-does-the-british-public-stand-on-transgender-rights-in-202425

All the aggression and shutting ordinary people down just upsets folk - looks like they’ll be Snatching defeat from the jaws of victory?

Sturgeon got booed

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-14476993/Nicola-Sturgeon-JEERED-outside-International-Womens-Day-event-Female-protesters-accuse-former-Minister-betrayal-controversial-gender-self-ID-laws.html

I wonder if they left the interns in charge over the weekend. There is also a completely bonkers article about Oban becoming the new Brighton, or the "new gay and lesbian hotspot" which will come as a surprise to most Obanites.

Interesting piece on the effect of TWAW in The Times on lesbians. I thought I understood the problems but I have to confess I hadn’t realised how bad.

Good summary of the gibberish created if we ignore basic sex biology and homosexuality

archive.is/IoTDr

The Sunday Times does seem to veer a little more TRA than the daily paper. There is a big sympathetic piece in the magazine with the parent of a 'trans child' who has written a book. Not the first time they have had a piece like this in the magazine.

https://www.thetimes.com/uk/society/article/i-learnt-to-accept-my-transgender-child-but-i-couldnt-save-her-life-sfbhv2clk

I'm not sure if this piece has been posted yet on this thread. It's an older one but relevant at the moment as well.

https://www.thetimes.com/uk/scotland/article/how-a-handful-of-outraged-scottish-women-changed-our-world-k3ht9kn33

'How a handful of outraged Scottish women changed our world' - Ian Macwhirter

(Edit - hopefully this link works!)

I can recognise "consultation" when I see it.

If you're only talking to one side then it's not a consulation.
If you're filing one side under Hate then it's not a consultation.
If you're only listening to one side then it's not a consultation.

Scottish GRR was one of the the least consulted about bits of legislation until too late in the day.

I read that article in The Sunday Times as the mother being consumed by guilt and wanting to atone. She'd have puberty blockers handed out to any child who was persistent in asking for them because she believes that receiving them earlier would have saved her child from committing suicide. She wants the most potent puberty blockers to be handed out.

What I dislike most is that her guilt means that many children should be exposed to medical treatments that might cause harm because, seemingly as a way to honour the memory of her child, genderism in one of its most extreme forms must be promoted.

“It means that under the Equality Act a lesbian is either a female without a GRC or a male with a GRC, who is attracted both to females without GRCs and to males with GRCs, but not to females with GRCs or to males who identify as women but do not have GRCs. A lesbian couple could consist of two males with GRCs, but not two males who identify as women but do not have GRCs (those would be gay men) or one with a GRC and one without (that would be a straight couple).”

Lets hope that common sense prevails in the Supreme Court?!?

Yeah, there used to be plenty of parents of autistic children who thought chelation was the answer. There are always parents who follow mad treatments for extreme conditions and genuinely believe they work even when the evidence says the opposite. The chelators didn't get the same space in mainstream press though.

That’s a real good comparison - especially given the high incidence of autism in this population. It gauls me that DS has had literally zero therapy or help for autism and adhd over the last 15 years. Literally I’ve begged for awareness training and appropriate educational setting and we are told there’s no budget for something that affects up to 20% of the population …. Except theres £££ for trans rights and acceptance - a different group of neurodivergent people which account of less than 0.45% of the population. How does this add up in people’s minds?

being trans is not in itself a neurodivergence, although people who identify as trans can be neurodivergent

True, but it was worse than that. Three years ago (ish) a speculative research paper was linked from the National Autistic Society webpage which claimed that transition had cured the signs of autism in a patient. I'm pleased to say that the link to that paper has gone after the NAS redesigned its site.

The NAS has never recommended chelation.

Someone posted this link on another thread and it's a pretty good summary of the way trades unions are getting the Fife case wrong https://morningstaronline.co.uk/article/wake-call-trade-union-movement

Obviously!

My point is about how so much funding was channelled to such a small population when another known vulnerable group with The Autism Act still get zero

And arguably - my wild theory following on from the Cass conclusions - that if autism had had better support to start with, the autistic population seeking help for trans issues would have been significantly smaller

My girls both got access to quite a lot of help for autism. One went to a specialist school, and they both attended youth clubs (one for high functioning autistic children and the other a more general sen club).

The problem is that any autism provision these days are absolutely captured by trans activism.

The school my daughter attended is now apparently full of trans kids and they support them. My daughter left 9 years ago. Back then she had a girl in her class who identified as a cat but school wouldn't let her - she was told off for purring and meowing. But now it would be tolerated.

And as for the youth clubs....after lockdown everything had LGBT+ all over it. I found a load of stuff she brought home from the last time she went and it was a LGBT+ word search, a colouring in rainbow flag sheet, stories about trans kids.