NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #23

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It is planned that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21
Thread 22: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5280174-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-22

IIRC there was something on one of the previous threads about supporting Tribunal Tweets. Is @justabaker around to give us more info?

It's about finding what you're good at, and interested in. That combination is an absolute winner, IMO.

Respect to NC for recognising that, though useful, she isn't the best. (From someone who does the same - I think one thing I am better at than the median in my job is recognising where I am, relative to the median ;-) ) I'm no judge of barristers but I think she might be right. Remember those various times in the threads where we anxiously asked one another, where is she going with this argument, what is the point? From what I remember of watching Ben, we didn't ever have that feeling with him - one of the things he's excellent about is signposting what he's doing and where he's going, all the way through. I'd be interested in opinions from lawyers, but I suspect that may be part of what separates the good from the best. Maybe?

Did anyone here watch the prorogation Supreme Court hearing? Dear god, most of those KCs were a shambles! Muttering, stuttering, failing to get to the point.

As for what makes the best? I don't know, it's probably hard to put your finger on. And it's different for barristers and solicitors too, as their roles are distinct. Persuasiveness for barristers, and being able to give succinct explanations as to why they believe the judge should follow their way of thinking, is important. As is being able to get witnesses to say under cross x something which harms their case. (And vice versa.)

If you're a litigation solicitor, it's about persuading the other side that your point of view is more likely to be agreed with by a judge. It's a bit of a game really. Good fun!

An opinion piece from the Courier on public funds.

https://archive.is/4OVVr

We will keep asking the difficult questions — and we will keep demanding serious answers.

Because without scrutiny, there is no accountability. And without accountability, trust in our public institutions is eroded.

That is why we will always fight for your right to know.

From what I remember of watching Ben, we didn't ever have that feeling with him - one of the things he's excellent about is signposting what he's doing and where he's going, all the way through

I think it must depend to an extent on the case - the clarity of the legal arguments available, the character and intelligence of the witness, and how robust your case prep is. In this case NC is definitely hamstrung on the last aspect - with so many facts not disclosed by the other side, or revealed only part way though, she presumably needs to do a certain amount of pulling at random threads to see if they lead anywhere or not. Some will - like admissions of undisclosed documents or whole investigations - and some won't.

What I found particularly fascinating in Phoenix v OU, though, was how clearly we could all follow BC's path and knew exacrly where he was heading, but the witnesses on the whole could not. We'd seen the bear trap several turns ahead but they all went merrily skipping along oblivious until BANG.

NC is involved in other cases - so when you donate to their crowdfunders you are helping pay her wages.

I donate to cases where women, and sometimes men, are losing their jobs or facing discrimination. I've donated to Sex Matters, who are challenging bad policies.

Lots of people need your help.

Tribunal tweets have a subscribe button on their web page, with options for regular or one off payments. I remember something about them wanting to pay for a twitter bluetick to avoid being their presentation being hampered by the tweet character limit (fewer, long tweets would be easier to follow).
tribunaltweets.substack.com

I totally agree with you and I was still in that place until this tribunal. I thought it was just something I couldn’t understand because these people are minorities and I’m a bigot if I don’t go along with this. Even Naomi Cunningham was in this place at one point, she mentions it in this article. https://www.holyrood.com/inside-politics/view,naomi-cunningham-im-fuelled-by-rage-and-ive-been-lucky

Swinney is going to meet FWS supposedly but I wonder who wrote the headline for the article "Swinney vows to meet women’s group who oppose trans equality";

https://www.thetimes.com/article/d11ab5e7-195a-4432-b3d0-412a3b080404?shareToken=0079604066a2c64c5d11607dde8d4d4f

There has been increasing FWS judgement mentionitis in the media for the last few days. That coupled with Swinney’s acknowledgment makes me think we’ll get the judgement early next week.

delurking to appreciate how these threads have opened my eyes to how little I know about tax payer funded organisations pissing money away on idealistic twaddle with zero accountability.

Do FWS/SG get the judgement before it goes public or the same day? I'm not sure how it works? I hope its soon and what we hope for.

@OhBuggerandArse I worked for a public sector org that was very captured. Fortunately, I left to work elsewhere. I can relate to what you say about being easily led. There was no other POV other than TWAW. I fear this is endemic throughout the public sector in Scotland.

The organisation in question was skills development scotland (Scotland's careers service). They had (and I think still do) a representative of Stonewall Scotland on their equality advisory board. The former head of LGBT+ Scotland is now SDS' head of equality. When I left, there was debate over whether trans identifying young people should be recorded on the careers record system as their sex or gender identity - unison, our union, were pushing for gender identity. I do not know what happened, but as many of our clients are as young as 11 when they start working with us in high schools, that is obviously concerning if unison did get their way. We had a LGBT+ allies staff network but every time our BAME colleagues or disabled colleagues asked for their own network, there was 'insufficient demand'. We had conferences with TW as guest speakers - I think Alison Priestley was the name of one. We had rainbow lanyards and attendance at pride events. Our equality advisor in HR was fresh out of university - very similar to IB in that they had little prior experience or qualifications. I remember a blog on our intranet for pride month about a staff member who identified as pansexual and people whispering in the office 'what the fuck is that?". Pronouns started appearing in our signatures, Gender neutral signs started appearing on staff toilet doors. Careers advisors - again those who can work with young people as young as 11 - started wearing all sorts of badges and tops with slogans that in any other workplace you wouldnt get away with. SDS were in the top twenty of Stonewall diversity employers in 2018 I think but are no longer mentioned so may have now left the scheme. We also got training from the Scottish Transgender Alliance - the previous head of STA was James someone - total arsehole.Did I read that the new STA head is giving evidence in this case?

Sorry that was a long post, I just wanted to give an insight into what goes on inside some Scottish public sectors and no doubt others are similar.

Has the headline on the Times piece changed? It now says campaigners who oppose trans reforms.

Swinney to meet feminist campaigners who oppose SNP trans reforms

Yes, it has changed. Archive with current headline.

https://archive.ph/MdXpp

Me too. I had no idea how much money is thrown away on organisations.

Why what is the purpose?

This is an interesting side piece also in today's Times.

No bones yet thrown to biological realists, but an acknowledgment that the BBC is largely staffed by metropolitan liberals and there isn't enough diversity of thought. Shah has also taken over chairing the BBC editorial guidelines and standards committee. I'm making a mental note to remember that, so that I can send a letter directly to him, should the need arise.

BBC chairman: We need working-class northerners to counter liberal bias

www.thetimes.com/article/20059783-8a17-4317-a6c1-49d5c2e729b6?shareToken=d2624f30f146540f673a30e125cd432d

I was not comfortable with people second-guessing NC and her team’s strategy.

She and MG are very experienced and wily beyond my ken. I always assumed that they not only had documents and information that observers don’t but that they were setting snares for the unwary.

Even if they are denied on the request for Upton’s phone or adding KS as Respondent 3 - it will look unfair to the public if these aren’t granted.

Look at what we now know about the missing Impact Assessments. And the absence of policies at the time.

I admire the team and am confident not only about their legal expertise but remarkable strategic thinking and relationships.

Splendid women.

Glad the headline changed, this is a screenshot from before it changed.

KnottyAuty · Yesterday 20:24

An opinion piece from the Courier on public funds.

If nothing else, money wasting will engage people who don't understand the situation, or have no interest. Perhaps reading about that will peak more people. As pointed out often, there's a lot of confusion, with people thinking that Upton and Co are women and wondering what all the fuss is about.

CarefulN0w · Today 07:59

BBC chairman: We need working-class northerners to counter liberal bias

That could work well, if they get lots in senior positions, or it could go badly, with people being sidelined and sacked for wrongthink, or just keeping their heads down.

There are so many trans zealots at the BBC that they would benefit from rooting the more obnoxious ones out.

Thank you, that was interesting. I was struck by this comment from Mr Shah

Getting the public to participate in the BBC is a really good principle. But I don’t know quite what mutualisation in practice would mean. One of the dangers is that it gets hijacked by activists and becomes difficult. That’s a proper danger.”

The BBC headline change is striking (and correct).

How would that have come about, I wonder?

The headline changed. I complained. I bet they got many other complaints too

One of the tribunals coming up where you can donate and support NC. https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5290287-i-was-hounded-out-of-publishing-i-was-persona-non-grata-for-publishing-material-girls