Page 33 | NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #21

PrettyDamnCosmic · 21/02/2025 17:51

KnottyAuty · 21/02/2025 17:03

Excellent!

This is the bit where I thought NHS Fife put their metaphorical head on the chopping block when - in response to SP’s ET Claims about allowing DU to access the female CR - they said they only allow it on a case by case basis.

I believe that these case by case checks are required by the EHRC…

But of course, it’s already in evidence that no one had checked DU before they used the female CR. And there was no policy on the website on how staff would even carry out the check.

So I’ve always assumed the judge would find in SP’s favour on this because the evidence (of absence of checking) was so clear.

… And for NHS Fife to flag it in their first response to SP’s claims seemed like an own goal to me - because if they’d not denied that charge by saying it was policy to do checks, then I’d never have noticed. It’s just like when I sat up and listened every time JR spoke because it flagged when something was going badly for her case)

As far as I recall from his evidence Upton wasn't given permission nor did he ask for permission. He just started using the changing room that was clearly marked as female only. He had a routine meeting with his supervisor Dr Katie Searle some time after he had started work in A&E & just mentioned in passing that he was using the female changing room & she agreed that it was OK.

TriesNotToBeCynical · 21/02/2025 17:53

JanesLittleGirl · 21/02/2025 17:44

They often do want your NI number. I got the following as part of an email the last time that I had a hire car:

^In order for us to insure you on a hire vehicle we will require you and any other drivers of the hire vehicle to complete an online licence check.

To complete, you will need the following:

• Driving licence number

• National Insurance number

• Postcode on your driving license.

Once you have these details please follow the instructions below:

Go online to: www.gov.uk/view-driving-licence^

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(sorry for thread drift) If a car hire company get your NI number and do this check "for you" they are committing a crime. Even if their motive is just to save time. Only the licence holder is permitted to do this check, and should give the hire company a check number to validate the licence. Not their NI number.

mrshoho · 21/02/2025 17:56

ShockedandStunnedRepeatedly · 21/02/2025 16:40

Finally!

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“Under the Public Sector Equality Duty, all Scottish health boards must assess how their policies and practices affect people with protected characteristics. We have requested that NHS Fife provide us with a copy of any equality impact assessment relating to the provision of changing facilities for staff; any information relevant to how such policies have been kept under review; and any details on steps taken to ensure that the rights of different groups are balanced in the application of these policies.

Oh to be a fly on the wall.

ICouldHaveCheckedFirst · 21/02/2025 18:00

@TriesNotToBeCynical
Re licences, I was test driving cars recently and a couple of places asked me for my NI no as well as a copy of my driving licence.

NImumconfused · 21/02/2025 18:00

Slightly off topic but just flagging up the GMC thread on AIBU, in case some of you knowledgeable people could input!

MorrisZapp · 21/02/2025 18:01

SirChenjins · 21/02/2025 17:48

I think Dr Upton is enjoying his 5 minutes of fame - every sector has its stars, and he's the pin-up boy for the TRAs at the moment. Meanwhile, the high heid yins at NHS Fife must be quacking in their boots - it's really not looking good for them.

Quacking indeed!

ICouldHaveCheckedFirst · 21/02/2025 18:04

@PrettyDamnCosmic
"He had a routine meeting with his supervisor Dr Katie Searle some time after he had started work in A&E & just mentioned in passing that he was using the female changing room & she agreed that it was OK."

As I keep saying, no actual woman would ever even think of having that conversation so that's his admission, right there, that he's not a woman.

rebmacesrevda · 21/02/2025 18:05

Has anyone accused EHRC of transphobia yet?

KnottyAuty · 21/02/2025 18:08

mrshoho · 21/02/2025 17:56

“Under the Public Sector Equality Duty, all Scottish health boards must assess how their policies and practices affect people with protected characteristics. We have requested that NHS Fife provide us with a copy of any equality impact assessment relating to the provision of changing facilities for staff; any information relevant to how such policies have been kept under review; and any details on steps taken to ensure that the rights of different groups are balanced in the application of these policies.

Oh to be a fly on the wall.

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I wonder what Esther Davidson is thinking about all this. She must be relieved she’s given her evidence but I wonder if she’s heard about this Equality Impact Assessment she was supposed to have carried out but didn’t….?

oldwomanwhoruns · 21/02/2025 18:11

lcakethereforeIam · 21/02/2025 17:37

I just want to make a note of this, it keeps occurring to me and then I keep forgetting it. I'll preface by saying I didn't watch Upton testifying, I followed along mostly on the MN threads (thanks again everyone👍), so I am possibly being unfair to him. The more outrageous stuff he said; biological female, prejudice from being in a same sex marriage and against him as a woman doctor, etc., reminded me of Penny Mordaunt. She made a speech in the HoC aiming to say the word 'cock' (I think that's what it was) as many times as possible. She had a bet with some of her friends. I'm not saying he was lying but I think he was enjoying it and it was deliberately provocative.

I watched Upton being cross examined, via the video link.
He was absolutely grandstanding. He wouldn't give a straight, simple answer to any question. He argued the toss with Naomi on every point. He kept speachifying about trans rights. He eventually delivered what one can only describe as a trans rights manifesto!

He came across as a complete fanatic, convinced that he was the only intelligent person in the room, and that the mere mortals there would never understand because they were all stupid. Not clever like him.
A truly bizarre performance.

fromorbit · 21/02/2025 18:11

Latest - Sarwar and Scottish Labour leadership lose vote today on endorsing the Cass Review to protect Scottish children at the Scottish Labour Conference after a furious debate. Plus Scottish Trade Union Congress accused Anas Sarwar of a “betrayal” of the country’s LGBTQ+ community.

Details in Scottish Labour thread;
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5277296-in-quite-the-turnaround-scottish-labour-say-the-support-sandie-peggie-and-would-not-support-the-grr-bill-knowing-what-they-know-now?page=11&reply=142348916

YouAlwaysWasAJudas · 21/02/2025 18:17

A lot of my patients were quite conservative many female patients wore long clothes, or the hijab but they allowed me to examine them despite my change. In fact, after my transition, they even allowed me to perform more intimate examinations that they did not let me to do when I was a male GP. Every single one of them refused my offer of a chaperone even when they knew that I am transgender. After the positive experience on my first day back to work, I remembered having tears in my eyes during my drive home. I was overwhelmed with emotions, and they were tears of happiness. I could not recall the last time I felt this happy.

Reading that has really pissed me off.

Back in the day our family used to attend a 2-man GP surgery, it was literally in the ground floor of a house.
About twenty years after first registering there I received a letter saying all patients were being transferred to a modern medical centre, I didn't think much of it at the time, just assumed it was progress.

A few weeks after the letter arrived the whole of the front page of our local newspaper featured my GP.
He'd been on trial for sexually assaulting multiple female patients.

He'd been reported to the police by a patient and they'd interviewed him but he'd denied everything the patient had claimed. The police had then advised him for his benefit as much as his patients that he should always have a chaperone present when conducting intimate examinations. This would apparently help prevent false accusations against him.

The GP carried on with his sexual assaults.

When it went to trial he pleaded not guilty but the fact that he'd continued to conduct examinations without chaperones present, despite being advised to do so by the police, was used as evidence against him. He was found guilty, received a prison sentence, and was struck off.

I'm not against being examined by a male medic but I'd like to be given the option, where possible, of having a female instead. Medical treatment should be patient-centred, and informed consent should be an absolute priority. Asking for a female doctor and being attended to by a male doctor who tells me they are female is not allowing me informed consent.

Cismyfatarse · 21/02/2025 18:19

Greyskybluesky · 21/02/2025 16:04

Just seen this:

Transgender Women of Britain PLEASE READ
I’ve been following the appalling behaviours shown my the media, politicians and TERFs/GC bullies and bigots and I’m getting angry
On July 16th In Dundee the terfs are going to out in force? And the media 3 ring circus???
How about organising a “Supporting Beth Upton”
I’m imagining something like the episode in Grays anatomy when all the women staff lined up to support a woman who had raped?
We not hundreds of trans woman standing in silence two lines we could clap Beth maybe but we need to respond
Take to the streets, weve got nearly five months we need a Greenham common style peace camp for the 11 days that the case is going to last
Or a stop the City.. ? [btw I was at both - Green CND]
Enough is enough
My name is [...], and I’m a proud tran Womam
We can do this?

Interesting they only care about transgender women (aka men). Patriarchy innit?

Greyskybluesky · 21/02/2025 18:25

I know @Cismyfatarse what about the loyal handmaidens? After all they've done they're not invited

ShockedandStunnedRepeatedly · 21/02/2025 18:26

One of the things that is drummed into you in legal training (and I’m sure many other fields but I speak from my own experience) is to always think: how can what I have written here be misinterpreted/subverted? Is it ambiguous, or does it create a loophole that the other side could exploit? What of a bad actor, someone not acting in good faith? So when you have a contract, for example, there is the “contra proferentem” principle… if wording of a clause is in any way ambiguous, that wording will be interpreted in the way that is least favourable to the interests of the party that provided the wording in question. It is quite difficult at first and takes some practice. It requires a degree of abstract, flexible thinking to imagine all the potential interpretations and the consequences that might flow from it. Similarly, in policy making, it is incumbent on those who draft a policy to consider just how wide open you’re opening a particular metaphorical door, and whether it might allow someone to exploit whatever system it is you’re setting up. Particularly in relation to subjective intent! And that rigour has been conspicuously absent throughout this whole sorry mess.

Of course as we know the many loopholes and inconsistencies in the GRR Bill were very eloquently and clearly highlighted and explained to politicians by many talented and dedicated feminists, but they chose not to listen. Or to think for themselves. That is a dereliction of duty and it’s rich to hear them bleating now that “they didn’t know”. It’s your job to know. This is not a game.

TriesNotToBeCynical · 21/02/2025 18:29

Greyskybluesky · 21/02/2025 18:25

I know @Cismyfatarse what about the loyal handmaidens? After all they've done they're not invited

Are they going to question any female-looking people who attend about whether they are trans?

NotAGentleReminder · 21/02/2025 18:30

Greyskybluesky · 21/02/2025 16:04

Just seen this:

Transgender Women of Britain PLEASE READ
I’ve been following the appalling behaviours shown my the media, politicians and TERFs/GC bullies and bigots and I’m getting angry
On July 16th In Dundee the terfs are going to out in force? And the media 3 ring circus???
How about organising a “Supporting Beth Upton”
I’m imagining something like the episode in Grays anatomy when all the women staff lined up to support a woman who had raped?
We not hundreds of trans woman standing in silence two lines we could clap Beth maybe but we need to respond
Take to the streets, weve got nearly five months we need a Greenham common style peace camp for the 11 days that the case is going to last
Or a stop the City.. ? [btw I was at both - Green CND]
Enough is enough
My name is [...], and I’m a proud tran Womam
We can do this?

This has wound me up so much I'm struggling to be coherent. Comparing Dr Upton to a (albeit fictional) woman who has been raped and planning to form a corridor of support to clap him? This nonsense ideology appropriates from every genuine cause it possibly can as that is the only way it can manipulate sympathy from anyone.

Merrymouse · 21/02/2025 18:33

"I’m imagining something like the episode in Grays anatomy when all the women staff lined up to support a woman who had raped?"

Freudian slip?

duc748 · 21/02/2025 18:35

Greyskybluesky · 21/02/2025 16:04

Just seen this:

Transgender Women of Britain PLEASE READ
I’ve been following the appalling behaviours shown my the media, politicians and TERFs/GC bullies and bigots and I’m getting angry
On July 16th In Dundee the terfs are going to out in force? And the media 3 ring circus???
How about organising a “Supporting Beth Upton”
I’m imagining something like the episode in Grays anatomy when all the women staff lined up to support a woman who had raped?
We not hundreds of trans woman standing in silence two lines we could clap Beth maybe but we need to respond
Take to the streets, weve got nearly five months we need a Greenham common style peace camp for the 11 days that the case is going to last
Or a stop the City.. ? [btw I was at both - Green CND]
Enough is enough
My name is [...], and I’m a proud tran Womam
We can do this?

They ought to get themselves some Handmaid's Tale outfits, for the full effect! 😄

delvar · 21/02/2025 18:37

ShockedandStunnedRepeatedly · 21/02/2025 18:26

One of the things that is drummed into you in legal training (and I’m sure many other fields but I speak from my own experience) is to always think: how can what I have written here be misinterpreted/subverted? Is it ambiguous, or does it create a loophole that the other side could exploit? What of a bad actor, someone not acting in good faith? So when you have a contract, for example, there is the “contra proferentem” principle… if wording of a clause is in any way ambiguous, that wording will be interpreted in the way that is least favourable to the interests of the party that provided the wording in question. It is quite difficult at first and takes some practice. It requires a degree of abstract, flexible thinking to imagine all the potential interpretations and the consequences that might flow from it. Similarly, in policy making, it is incumbent on those who draft a policy to consider just how wide open you’re opening a particular metaphorical door, and whether it might allow someone to exploit whatever system it is you’re setting up. Particularly in relation to subjective intent! And that rigour has been conspicuously absent throughout this whole sorry mess.

Of course as we know the many loopholes and inconsistencies in the GRR Bill were very eloquently and clearly highlighted and explained to politicians by many talented and dedicated feminists, but they chose not to listen. Or to think for themselves. That is a dereliction of duty and it’s rich to hear them bleating now that “they didn’t know”. It’s your job to know. This is not a game.

OMG, I'm retired now, but was once a legislation drafter for a Government Department. Every single word of your post brought me back to the days of deciding on a semi colon, colon, full stop or comma, this word or that, that phrase here or there, the effect of this on x and y etc. etc. I'm in a bit of a sweat with the memories. 😳

rebmacesrevda · 21/02/2025 18:39

TriesNotToBeCynical · 21/02/2025 18:29

Are they going to question any female-looking people who attend about whether they are trans?

Show quote history

Why do you ask? Are you planning to infiltrate them?

NotAGentleReminder · 21/02/2025 18:42

ShockedandStunnedRepeatedly · 21/02/2025 18:26

One of the things that is drummed into you in legal training (and I’m sure many other fields but I speak from my own experience) is to always think: how can what I have written here be misinterpreted/subverted? Is it ambiguous, or does it create a loophole that the other side could exploit? What of a bad actor, someone not acting in good faith? So when you have a contract, for example, there is the “contra proferentem” principle… if wording of a clause is in any way ambiguous, that wording will be interpreted in the way that is least favourable to the interests of the party that provided the wording in question. It is quite difficult at first and takes some practice. It requires a degree of abstract, flexible thinking to imagine all the potential interpretations and the consequences that might flow from it. Similarly, in policy making, it is incumbent on those who draft a policy to consider just how wide open you’re opening a particular metaphorical door, and whether it might allow someone to exploit whatever system it is you’re setting up. Particularly in relation to subjective intent! And that rigour has been conspicuously absent throughout this whole sorry mess.

Of course as we know the many loopholes and inconsistencies in the GRR Bill were very eloquently and clearly highlighted and explained to politicians by many talented and dedicated feminists, but they chose not to listen. Or to think for themselves. That is a dereliction of duty and it’s rich to hear them bleating now that “they didn’t know”. It’s your job to know. This is not a game.

I suspect there may have been people who had a hand in drafting this law who intended for it to be easily misinterpreted.

JustBitetheKnotsOff · 21/02/2025 18:43

Merrymouse · 21/02/2025 18:33

"I’m imagining something like the episode in Grays anatomy when all the women staff lined up to support a woman who had raped?"

Freudian slip?

That's the bit that struck me too. Was it the lovely India who wanted to know 'what prison would I go to if I was raped?' which is equally odd.

KnottyAuty · 21/02/2025 18:53

NotAGentleReminder · 21/02/2025 18:30

This has wound me up so much I'm struggling to be coherent. Comparing Dr Upton to a (albeit fictional) woman who has been raped and planning to form a corridor of support to clap him? This nonsense ideology appropriates from every genuine cause it possibly can as that is the only way it can manipulate sympathy from anyone.

Show quote history

Made me think about going up to Dundee to give a WI-style slow hand clap. Polite disagreement expressed in a particularly female way. Any true British biological woman would be mortified

WeMeetInFairIthilien · 21/02/2025 18:56

<a class="break-all" href="https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c78ed8v0gwww.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c78ed8v0g8lo8lo" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c78ed8v0gwww.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c78ed8v0g8lo8lo

EHRC has made it to the BBC