NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #21

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It is planned that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.
Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20

Finally!

That’s what I like to call an “empathy free zone”. Pretty poor she can’t see the difference between her free will/informed choice and SP’s removal of rights. Some people are so dim it’s scary

I am always amazed at the extent to which the rich and protected are prepared to dismiss the actual lived experience of the working classes.

As the judge said though "We are not in Sweden."

I’ll bet my farm that “officially” they’ve decided not to look for that info now as I they’d have to disclose the findings in July - and as DU’s evidence went on it just seemed more and more likely that the docs would go in sandie’s favour… so I suppose it will depend if she’s got an ally on the staff who checks on the sly?

Pretty sure they do not need your NI Number. They do not have access to DWP HMRC records to check anything. Or they shouldn't. Although we all know some companies, particularly debt chasing / loan companies, will use people to access records illegally. It is the crime which shall not whisper it's name. It will eventually, just as the DBS shitshow has. That is also something I have been wanging on about for years.

At long last. I thought it interesting that one of the responses to Qs on single sex changing facilities at work was that the EHRC was responsible for enforcing this. I didn't think they'd ever step in, in an official capacity like this.

Oh, the absolutely glorious irony of the Grey's Anatomy reference....

(For anyone who hasn't seen it, it's here, and it still makes the hair rise on the back of my neck: )

ETA: And in today's NHS, you absolutely couldn't have that scene. Which makes me boil with rage.

Excellent!

This is the bit where I thought NHS Fife put their metaphorical head on the chopping block when - in response to SP’s ET Claims about allowing DU to access the female CR - they said they only allow it on a case by case basis.

I believe that these case by case checks are required by the EHRC…

But of course, it’s already in evidence that no one had checked DU before they used the female CR. And there was no policy on the website on how staff would even carry out the check.

So I’ve always assumed the judge would find in SP’s favour on this because the evidence (of absence of checking) was so clear.

… And for NHS Fife to flag it in their first response to SP’s claims seemed like an own goal to me - because if they’d not denied that charge by saying it was policy to do checks, then I’d never have noticed. It’s just like when I sat up and listened every time JR spoke because it flagged when something was going badly for her case)

🍿

Lots of lies from the arch liar.

I wonder if Wes was on the phone yesterday?

So GRCs cannot be requested,

Of course this is Stonewall Law, or the law as Stonewall would wish it to be. Michael Foran has said that the certificate is an agreement (arrangement?) between the government and the holder. The average person on the street can ask any old thing.

Oh, absolutely. That’s what I meant… The lobby argues this and well meaning and/or uninformed/captured types assume it is true.

I've missed bits of this thread (half term) but i'd like to point out that not being able to ask for a certificate that changes someone's legal sex does not seem to be safeguarding / DBS / safer recruitment compliant.

Can a DBS check find out if someone has a GRC? Surely this is important for someone who might be in single sex spaces with small children?

She obviously chose this at her leisure, just like people may choose to go to a naturist beach. It’s obviously got absolutely nothing to do with making it a requirement in a workplace.

She's very lucky to not have PTSD following male violence. Maybe she should consider how privileged she is and that not everyone is so lucky. Also, some women require single sex spaces for religious reasons so it's not very inclusive as an attitude.

How the hell do such people gain such positions? I know more and more people avoiding University altogether and this is why.

Great that the EHRC have gotten involved.

The SNP seem to be relying on the "I can't possibly comment...blah blah blah" mantra in the hope this will die down soon. But it's not going to go away. The Supreme Court ruling is due, and the SP case will be back in the spotlight again this summer when the tribunal resumes. And with the Scottish elections next year, the SNP are going to be worried that this issue will start to affect their polling 🤞🏻

I am feeling cautiously optimistic that our public institutions are being dragged back to sanity on this issue. Still a way to go, but it feels like the public have really woken up now,.and it's no longer just embattled feminists shouting from the sidelines.

That EHRC announcement is the equivalent of your boss coming to your desk and saying "have you got a minute?"

As someone who works in the DEI field, I know loads of Isla Bumbas, that young woman will be looking for another job if she isn't already. Imagine having the EHRC getting involved as a result of your advice...not good for the CV.

Ah, the euphoria of successfully deceiving one's patients

I just want to make a note of this, it keeps occurring to me and then I keep forgetting it. I'll preface by saying I didn't watch Upton testifying, I followed along mostly on the MN threads (thanks again everyone👍), so I am possibly being unfair to him. The more outrageous stuff he said; biological female, prejudice from being in a same sex marriage and against him as a woman doctor, etc., reminded me of Penny Mordaunt. She made a speech in the HoC aiming to say the word 'cock' (I think that's what it was) as many times as possible. She had a bet with some of her friends. I'm not saying he was lying but I think he was enjoying it and it was deliberately provocative.

They often do want your NI number. I got the following as part of an email the last time that I had a hire car:

^In order for us to insure you on a hire vehicle we will require you and any other drivers of the hire vehicle to complete an online licence check.

To complete, you will need the following:

• Driving licence number

• National Insurance number

• Postcode on your driving license.

Once you have these details please follow the instructions below:

Go online to: www.gov.uk/view-driving-licence^

I think Dr Upton is enjoying his 5 minutes of fame - every sector has its stars, and he's the pin-up boy for the TRAs at the moment. Meanwhile, the high heid yins at NHS Fife must be quacking in their boots - it's really not looking good for them.

Anyone else imagining NHS Fife saying "Oh look, correspondence here from EHRC, that'll be one for our Equality and Diversity person to deal with"

Or do you think they may just involve their legal team this time?

Thanks to everyone who's quoted and commented on my anecdote above. Yes, there's a lot of very privileged and insular people in Britain's higher education system. It's almost like a nature reserve for them in that respect. I see there are pictures online of a beaming Isla Bumba accompanied by the term #nhsfifelifechanger. Well, she's certainly changed a few lives. Including her own, by the look of it, and not necessarily for the better.