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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #19

1000 replies

nauticant · 14/02/2025 18:06

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It seems that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July but it wasn't completely clear whether it might end a day or two later.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18

OP posts:
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15
OP posts:
duc748 · 16/02/2025 14:42

It's only a small thing, in a way, but I reckon the primogeniture clause should be brought up every time some Labour MP gets up on their hind legs to tell us how proud they are of the GRA.

Waitwhat23 · 16/02/2025 14:45

I'd feel rather more sorry for Katie had she not then moved on to other third sector bodies (as is typical in Scotland - activists just move around the various public bodies/third sector) where she is a 'policy and practice officer', setting policy on gender neutral play and online hate as two examples.

Has her gender ideology views (described as 'dogmatic') been influenced by reality? Doubt it

(Quote didn't attach - I'm referring to Katie Horsburgh, former trustee of ERCC).

NoWordForFluffy · 16/02/2025 14:45

Manxexile · 16/02/2025 14:40

Yes but I wouldn't underestimate the ability of NHS institutions to point the finger at an individual and say "Yes we accept that we are ultimately corporately accountable for these failures, but it was this individual acting without proper authority and outside her remit who was responsible for them in the first place".

I've seen it happen

Potentially that is what happened. However, bearing in mind it's got to Tribunal, they can't be too worried about the advice she gave, as it's costing a hell of a lot of money to support it!

CheekySnake · 16/02/2025 14:49

One thing that has come out of all this, for me, is that my DH has at last started to take on board what I've been telling him for the past five years, that this is real, it is happening, and I'm not just winding myself up when I've told him that there are men pushing into female only spaces because of it. He works somewhere that promotes inclusivity and I can tell he's had the stonewall training. The kicker for me was a few years ago, when we were having a convo about it and he told me that it was 'a very difficult way to be a woman' (being a man pretending to be a woman) to which I responded with a very angry 'but they're not women. It might be a difficult way to be a man, but they are not women. They are just men, just the same as all other men.' I saw the penny drop then, though he's resisted being quite as hard line as me.

But when Upton described himself as 'not male' and as 'biologically female' and he said it out loud on camera, that peaked my DH. He said to me afterwards that his feeling has always been that if a man wants to wear a dress, use a female name, not use the male facilities, he sees that as basically harmless. But what he can't get his head round is the insistence on using the female facilities. He understands that they don't want to use the men's, but why do they insist it has to be the women's.

I think a lot of people are where he's at: that there was an unspoken contract in which everyone agreed to pretend that 'trans' people are the sex they are pretending to be, on the understanding that everyone knew they were pretending, including the trans person, and the pretence would stop in places where sex matters. And women who refused to play along with that were just being bitches, basically. He didn't want to believe that it was what it looks like.

He gets it now.

RedToothBrush · 16/02/2025 14:52

nebulousMoose · 16/02/2025 14:36

Yes.
And this post also relates to the impossibility of giving informed consent when a person is vulnerable, ill, their thinking is compromised:

Thread 15

NotMaroonButRaspberry · 09:07

"I've thought about this a lot.
I am no wallflower. I suspect many people find me quite irritating - I'm the one who always has a question at the end of a talk, always emails the school back, happily tells off the kids in the park while my own DC cringe etc
I'm assertive, confident and don't care much what other people think of me
I'm also a hcp with 25 years of NHS service.
But when I have been very ill and vulnerable, I have found myself completely unable to advocate for myself. I have put up with substandard care, nodded along to things I don't agree with in appointments and left completely unsatisfied or confused about the next steps or plan. I found myself unable to speak up and articulate my wants, needs or concerns.
I just can't believe that there is even a suggestion that vulnerable women are expected to repeat and nuance their consent over and over again when in the situation of their request for same sex care being blatantly overridden. If she doesn't speak up enough times with a detailed enough explanation (using approved terms) then tough luck. Revolting."

The quote above was specifically about same-sex care and consent, but @bonfirelady and @RedToothBrush make further very important points with their posts.

I have to say that in some ways, as a 5'2" petite woman I ALREADY find myself having to shout and assert myself more often then DH.

He doesn't need to say anything in so many situations as he already has that status and authority without saying a word just from his 6'2" size and his male status.

When I first pointed this out to DH many moons ago, he didn't believe me. But he started to notice just how differently I was treated in every situation - particularly when it comes to health care.

He's been shocked but does get it now.

KnottyAuty · 16/02/2025 14:54

@BonfireLady :
That all sounds really tough. Many friends with auty daughters have suffered from child to parent violence when they are in the depths of despair. It's very difficult and I hope you are all well and through this soon. If you haven't looked for your local SEN group/parent forum it might be a good place to go for understanding & coffee/cake IRL xx

"And thank you too to Dr Upton for showing the world, via a courtroom, what a full immersion into gender identity belief sounds like. I don't know whether you really believe it or are just flying in from Málaga to say that you do. Thank you regardless."

As we are nearly at thread #20 that I feel I can come clean and admit that I am back on MN after a 5 year (?) break a while back - after being absolutely flamed on an AIBU (under another username). Ironically it was a changing rooms thread about teen boys arriving in the ladies CR at the swimming pool ahead of their supervising adult. I'd been caught minus towel at a difficult moment juggling a slippery baby and was't too happy about being stared at by adolescent males - mainly curiosity than anything sinister. I was accused of all sorts - but the overriding view was that it was me that was the problem. I felt such a great sense of injustice I thought I'd rather not hang out on Mumsnet.

I am delighted to say that Sandie's changing room thread has restored my faith in MN and I have enjoyed my wonderful 2 week visit/deep dive to Terf Island with you all. @nauticant @ickky @Boiledbeetle @RedToothBrush and too many more to mention - its been a pleasure to hang out with you here. Insight, wit and intellect. As NC says "it is important to have a good war" - and what a band of comrades you are! Kisses to all!

Anyway that was a long way of saying that I have clearly missed a lot and have no idea what you are referring to by flying in from Málaga. Someone help me out

Pratincole · 16/02/2025 14:55

I have given up trying to read all the threads now - I just want to add myself to the count of readers of these threads, if any such is to be provided. I don'y often post as I always seem tpo be two days behind the action! Big thanks to all for the ineresting background and commentary, as usual for these threads - disappointed that i never did see the caramel cake recipe threatened about a week ago....

CheekySnake · 16/02/2025 14:58

KnottyAuty · 16/02/2025 14:54

@BonfireLady :
That all sounds really tough. Many friends with auty daughters have suffered from child to parent violence when they are in the depths of despair. It's very difficult and I hope you are all well and through this soon. If you haven't looked for your local SEN group/parent forum it might be a good place to go for understanding & coffee/cake IRL xx

"And thank you too to Dr Upton for showing the world, via a courtroom, what a full immersion into gender identity belief sounds like. I don't know whether you really believe it or are just flying in from Málaga to say that you do. Thank you regardless."

As we are nearly at thread #20 that I feel I can come clean and admit that I am back on MN after a 5 year (?) break a while back - after being absolutely flamed on an AIBU (under another username). Ironically it was a changing rooms thread about teen boys arriving in the ladies CR at the swimming pool ahead of their supervising adult. I'd been caught minus towel at a difficult moment juggling a slippery baby and was't too happy about being stared at by adolescent males - mainly curiosity than anything sinister. I was accused of all sorts - but the overriding view was that it was me that was the problem. I felt such a great sense of injustice I thought I'd rather not hang out on Mumsnet.

I am delighted to say that Sandie's changing room thread has restored my faith in MN and I have enjoyed my wonderful 2 week visit/deep dive to Terf Island with you all. @nauticant @ickky @Boiledbeetle @RedToothBrush and too many more to mention - its been a pleasure to hang out with you here. Insight, wit and intellect. As NC says "it is important to have a good war" - and what a band of comrades you are! Kisses to all!

Anyway that was a long way of saying that I have clearly missed a lot and have no idea what you are referring to by flying in from Málaga. Someone help me out

You need to google the airport code for malaga airport, I believe, and then google what the code itself also stands for.

KnottyAuty · 16/02/2025 14:58

PonyPatter44 · 16/02/2025 13:54

with the advent of social media we'd be likely to see a rise in extremist incidents involving autistic individuals in a range of different political areas because it encourages and exacerbates social isolation and echo chambers. Being autistic wouldn't make them extremists but it would make them more vulnerable to extremism - it's an important distinction.

This is EXACTLY what is being seen in forensic settings right now. Islamists, FREs, incels - young autistic men are being drawn into all these forms of extremism, because they have spent their whole lives feeling that they didn't fit in, and then they encounter extremist grooming online. BAM, suddenly they fit in, they have "friends" and they are part of something. There is a very similar problem with young ND men becoming involved in organised crime, for similar reasons. There is no reason to think that some bad faith actors in the gender identity movement don't behave in the same way.

Interesting!
Could you explain what you mean about "foresnic settings" please?

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 16/02/2025 14:59

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

HornyHornersPinkyWinky · 16/02/2025 14:59

Cheekysnake

I think your husband's initial reaction is not uncommon in most men; I tend to think that they see these men as somehow in need of our pity and sympathy - because what sane man would want to identify out of the privileges and status of manhood? Why would they give that up to hang out on the lower echelons with us women? To do so they must be really suffering etc.

Added to that, most people assume that all TW have surgery, or at least want surgery - so that's another thing, they voluntarily want to remove their penis, for most men that is such an abhorrent idea that they must be really suffering, and need sympathy, accommodations etc. And on and on it goes.

They don't have to think about the impact on women, because unless they are really observant, they don't generally think about things like that - not because they're all assholes, but in general we tend to frame things in terms of our own experiences.

CarefulN0w · 16/02/2025 15:01

FayeRC · 16/02/2025 12:58

@HornyHornersPinkyWinky The 70k is the total estimated costs of a full court process. I need to reach just another ~£200 (so 15,770) before Monday to fully cover the journey to this point. I only campaign for what I need in each step.

So far, the crowdfunder has covered the legal fees for the first preliminary hearing, responses to further information as requested by the Respondent, medical records, disability impact statement, more further info provided on disability status, and now the second preliminary hearing next week.

So we're not far off, and I think we'll get there today.

Thank you Faye. Such lovely weather to do some planting.

Swashbuckled · 16/02/2025 15:01

That is excellent, @Boiledbeetle 🥂

BonfireLady · 16/02/2025 15:02

Swashbuckled · 15/02/2025 20:10

Well, it’s always the rage that makes me do a rhyming thing. So here’s a rhyming thing.

Upton’s Delight:

I do worry no one saw me
For the genius that I am.
When I DARVOd in the courtroom,
They were my sheep; I was the ram!

Yet I spoke my words so softly
Like a genteel little miss,
And only showed my anger
With the merest little hiss.

See, my Dundee ID was Dragon
All dressed up as tiny Beth.
And if the mask slipped in my anger
They would see my fiery breath.

Hey, it was worth it for the show, girls;
How I made you stand in fear;
Undressing to your panties
Every time that I came near

Yes, I saw some of you shaking,
And inhaled those who felt rage;
Savouring who felt “done to”
While I locked you in my cage.

I did note your forced submission
And I felt it in my loins.
And I pulled on my big girl pants
When you sought to hide your groins.

You played your parts so well for me
To help you pay your rent,
And feed your bawling children.
‘Tis true that nurses are well-meant.

“Behold, I’m he; your lady doctor!
(No, you cannot see my balls
Peeping out behind my panties!
If you can, suspension calls….”)

But, oh, I bent you to my will so well,
And made you call me “she”,
I so loved you say that 4 is 5
While I stood to lady-pee.

So thanks, girls, for the good times.
You can be sure that I’ll return,
And, if not me, then one of mine.
But for now, we must adjourn.

👏👏👏👏

@Boiledbeetle please can I preorder volume 3? 😉 You'll have to do it now 😁 The contemporary commentary that you did in volume 2 was really helpful so can you do that again please. Yes, yes, I'm right on the edge of coercion here... just like I was with my attempt to persuade Red to overthrow the government. What can I say, you're both too good at these things not to go for it 😁

I too find rage inspires poetry but mine was also driven by fear for my daughter @Swashbuckled I only contributed one poem to volume 2 (and I didn't really have a clue what volume 1 was all about as I didn't know enough about gender identity at that time) but managed to pour it all in there. I'm up for the challenge of condensing it all again for another round.

Jimmyneutronsforehead · 16/02/2025 15:04

I'm also glad these threads have ended up in trending and so many members have peaked.

Sandie has inspired so many people she's making waves not ripples.

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 16/02/2025 15:04

KnottyAuty · 16/02/2025 14:54

@BonfireLady :
That all sounds really tough. Many friends with auty daughters have suffered from child to parent violence when they are in the depths of despair. It's very difficult and I hope you are all well and through this soon. If you haven't looked for your local SEN group/parent forum it might be a good place to go for understanding & coffee/cake IRL xx

"And thank you too to Dr Upton for showing the world, via a courtroom, what a full immersion into gender identity belief sounds like. I don't know whether you really believe it or are just flying in from Málaga to say that you do. Thank you regardless."

As we are nearly at thread #20 that I feel I can come clean and admit that I am back on MN after a 5 year (?) break a while back - after being absolutely flamed on an AIBU (under another username). Ironically it was a changing rooms thread about teen boys arriving in the ladies CR at the swimming pool ahead of their supervising adult. I'd been caught minus towel at a difficult moment juggling a slippery baby and was't too happy about being stared at by adolescent males - mainly curiosity than anything sinister. I was accused of all sorts - but the overriding view was that it was me that was the problem. I felt such a great sense of injustice I thought I'd rather not hang out on Mumsnet.

I am delighted to say that Sandie's changing room thread has restored my faith in MN and I have enjoyed my wonderful 2 week visit/deep dive to Terf Island with you all. @nauticant @ickky @Boiledbeetle @RedToothBrush and too many more to mention - its been a pleasure to hang out with you here. Insight, wit and intellect. As NC says "it is important to have a good war" - and what a band of comrades you are! Kisses to all!

Anyway that was a long way of saying that I have clearly missed a lot and have no idea what you are referring to by flying in from Málaga. Someone help me out

Well, clearly I wasn’t circumspect enough in my description of Malaga airport as I managed to get myself deleted. But I think a few others have clarified so hopefully you’ll get your answer…

BonfireLady · 16/02/2025 15:05

Swashbuckled · 16/02/2025 15:01

That is excellent, @Boiledbeetle 🥂

I'm still playing catch-up. Very much empathising with the earlier Sisyphus comment. This comment caught my eye as I was about to zip back to page 25. I'm hoping this means volume 3 is going to happen 🤞🤞🤞❤️❤️❤️

Manxexile · 16/02/2025 15:06

whospayingjanerussell · 16/02/2025 14:34

Would that have been Katie Horsburgh?

I think that must have been her.

She was the trustee responsible for managing Roz Adams' grievance against ERCC and she resigned after the tribunal.

Edinburgh Rape Crisis Centre CEO’s position ‘untenable’ after damning tribunal ruling

HornyHornersPinkyWinky · 16/02/2025 15:06

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 16/02/2025 15:04

Well, clearly I wasn’t circumspect enough in my description of Malaga airport as I managed to get myself deleted. But I think a few others have clarified so hopefully you’ll get your answer…

It's like Omertà - just not allowed to talk about it..

It's crazy how deletions are still happening - I remember a few years ago when half a thread would be deleted for very minor things - like saying truthful things! As a newbie to the FWR board I was quite shocked at how much censorship MN yielded over this topic. It just made me more angry tbh.

KnottyAuty · 16/02/2025 15:09

IDareSay · 16/02/2025 14:00

Re Boswell quoted upthread talking about Whittle's claims:

"NHS Fife had a right to operate single-sex spaces under Schedule 3, Para 28 of the EqA. The legal question is whether Peggie was treated unfairly based on sex or belief—not whether NHS Fife followed its own policy."

In fact this case isn't about Schedule 3 of the EqA, it's about the Workplace regulations (section 24) of 1992, where employers are obliged to provide single sex changing facilities.

"Without prejudice to the generality of paragraph (1), the facilities mentioned in that paragraph shall not be suitable unless they include separate facilities for, or separate use of facilities by, men and women where necessary for reasons of propriety" (My bold).

www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1992/3004/regulation/24

Obviously this is relevant but where does it fit into the argument?

Can SP prove that DU harassed her just by being a male in the female changing rooms when she required a female only space (as per Workplace Regs)?

Or - as asserted by DU, was SP a transphobe who harassed DU by expressing her belief with pejorative terms (man, chromosomes, comparison with rapist/Isla Bryson)?

To succeed surely NC will focus on proving the harassment and principle of why single spaces are needed, rather than relying on the old law which others argue is out of date? For example historically the law allowed people to own slaves, and that was changed when social values rightly moved on. Or am I missing something?

CheekySnake · 16/02/2025 15:09

HornyHornersPinkyWinky · 16/02/2025 14:59

Cheekysnake

I think your husband's initial reaction is not uncommon in most men; I tend to think that they see these men as somehow in need of our pity and sympathy - because what sane man would want to identify out of the privileges and status of manhood? Why would they give that up to hang out on the lower echelons with us women? To do so they must be really suffering etc.

Added to that, most people assume that all TW have surgery, or at least want surgery - so that's another thing, they voluntarily want to remove their penis, for most men that is such an abhorrent idea that they must be really suffering, and need sympathy, accommodations etc. And on and on it goes.

They don't have to think about the impact on women, because unless they are really observant, they don't generally think about things like that - not because they're all assholes, but in general we tend to frame things in terms of our own experiences.

I often think about this, which is from The Cement Garden (novel by Ian McEwan).

"Girls can wear jeans and cut their hair short and wear shirts and boots because it's okay to be a boy; for girls it's like promotion. But for a boy to look like a girl is degrading, according to you, because secretly you believe that being a girl is degrading."

I think that many people have got stuck here: for a man to want to be a woman, he must be really serious, because it's a downgrade. Therefore no man would do it unless he had no other choice, and therefore we must give them extra compassion, because imagine how miserable you would have to be to want to be a second class human.

That idea has done a lot of heavy lifting. It has been particularly successful as obscuring the sexual elements (and there are lots. I don't know if I can list them without being deleted, but it goes way beyond just crossdressing).

nauticant · 16/02/2025 15:09

MN hasn't felt able to give us a complete free expression on these issues but what it has provided has been of immense value.

OP posts:
MrsOvertonsWindow · 16/02/2025 15:12

DeanElderberry · 16/02/2025 10:56

If the person being adopted is a young adult, as gender transitioners are, destroying their old identity seems cruel and potentially harmful. Their earlier self is not dead, any more than the pre-transition self, the pre-marriage woman, the pre-life in religion woman or man is.

Why act as though they are entering a witness protection programme when they aren't?

Adoption in infancy is not a comparable situation.

Indeed. This is the trouble with transactivism's relentless co-option of the lives and experiences of others. An adult claiming to have changed sex bears no relation to any of the issues involved in adoption - of infants or older children.
It's all so offensive.

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