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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #19

1000 replies

nauticant · 14/02/2025 18:06

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It seems that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July but it wasn't completely clear whether it might end a day or two later.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18

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15
UnhappyAndYouKnowIt · 16/02/2025 13:50

anyolddinosaur · 15/02/2025 17:05

EDI seems to have become all about the trans and nothing else matters. Meanwhile more black women die in childbirth, south asians are more likely to be diabetic, younger people with learning disabilities aged 18 to 34 were 30 times more likely to die of Covid than others the same age, childrens health is considered to be getting worse. https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/insight-and-analysis/blogs/prevention-better-cure-need-prioritise-childrens-health

EDI needs to get back to doing things that may actually help,

This is exactly where I am. There are so many vulnerable people who really do need help and they've all been pushed aside to centre a group which appears to be primarily made up of middle class white men and their helpers.

KnottyAuty · 16/02/2025 13:51

Chersfrozenface · 16/02/2025 12:37

Thing is, it is possible to learn about the appearance and behaviour of all species of snake and to therefore know which ones are dangerous

Not easy, given that there are over 3,000 species, but possible.

It is not possible to know which humans are dangerous - they are all one species and the dangerous ones don't have physical identifying features.

You can make rough guesses - men are statistically and physically more dangerous than women, some individuals display behaviours that suggest they are dangerous - but you can't know to the degree that is possible by identifying venomous and constructor snake species.

And quite rightly for these reasons the TV show would never get past the ethics board... too risky for the participants

(but I'd love to see dedicated TRAs be the first contestants to show their loyalty to the Not All Men rhetoric)

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 16/02/2025 13:52

BonfireLady · 16/02/2025 13:36

Thank you for delurking. As a mum of a child who was actively gender questioning and at a mental health crisis point in 2022-23 (violence at home from her towards us, particularly me etc), this part struck a real chord with me (italics are mine).

I peaked some time ago, courtesy of an ROGD child (who, fingers, toes, eyes, tits and everything else crossed, is now safely out the other side, though I do live in eternal fear). I researched and researched and came across Hannah Barnes and Helen Joyce, and somewhere along the way I read (heard?) an interview with someone (I feel like it was Graham Linehan) who was asked why the UK was so terfy, and he said “Mumsnet”. And it’s true - you are the loveliest, viperiest, rights hoarding dinosaurs anywhere on the interwebs.

I don't feel safely out of the other side yet as my daughter is still only 15 and is subject to constant influence both in school and the wider IRL and online world. However, I'm not sure this fear will fully go away for years until and unless this scandal is fully exposed.

💐💐💐💐 to you and your child.

And 👏👏👏👏🙏🙏🙏🙏 to the vipery (loving that word 😁) MN rights-hoarding dinosaurs.

And thank you too to Dr Upton for showing the world, via a courtroom, what a full immersion into gender identity belief sounds like. I don't know whether you really believe it or are just flying in from Málaga to say that you do. Thank you regardless.

Edited to clarify that the violence was from my distressed daughter. I had never experienced violence in the home until this point in my life. I can only imagine how awful and scary it must be in other situations e.g. if you're the child or partner of the violent person. But speaking as the mum and seeing the sibling impact amongst other things, it was an incredibly difficult time. She didn't want to be doing it but this was the depth of her crisis. She was being bullied every day at school in relation to her autism and at the same time as feeling distressed about her changing body and the sensory aspects of breast development and periods.

Edited

Sending you so many hugs. The fear is terrible. When we were deep in it I was up all night most nights and regularly screamed and wept in my car where no one could see me. I remain scared to even raise this as a subject of conversation with my child, even though it’s pretty clear we’re out of the woods. It has fundamentally changed me as a person.

The in-person isolation was also so, so terrible. There was no one I could talk to about any of this except my husband. There was the parents’ Discord group (whose name, astonishingly, escapes me) but after a while I found it too hard to carry all of their pain along with my own and I had to step back. Coming here and reading posts from strong, angry women who weren’t afraid to call a dick a dick, well that was more like it. The fear ground me down - the anger made me whole again. Made me feel like there was something that could be done.

So, thank you again vipers.

PonyPatter44 · 16/02/2025 13:54

RedToothBrush · 16/02/2025 09:39

I've posted about it a number of times - there's quite a few articles and a few research projects on the subject.

I think this would also possibly explain why people who are autistic are more at risk because they are more vulnerable as they are more likely to become fixated on a subject and therefore end up in echo chambers and struggle more to see things from multiple perspectives.

(If this is the case, with the advent of social media we'd be likely to see a rise in extremist incidents involving autistic individuals in a range of different political areas because it encourages and exacerbates social isolation and echo chambers. Being autistic wouldn't make them extremists but it would make them more vulnerable to extremism - it's an important distinction. I would argue we really should be looking closely at this as being a possibility of current social patterns).

with the advent of social media we'd be likely to see a rise in extremist incidents involving autistic individuals in a range of different political areas because it encourages and exacerbates social isolation and echo chambers. Being autistic wouldn't make them extremists but it would make them more vulnerable to extremism - it's an important distinction.

This is EXACTLY what is being seen in forensic settings right now. Islamists, FREs, incels - young autistic men are being drawn into all these forms of extremism, because they have spent their whole lives feeling that they didn't fit in, and then they encounter extremist grooming online. BAM, suddenly they fit in, they have "friends" and they are part of something. There is a very similar problem with young ND men becoming involved in organised crime, for similar reasons. There is no reason to think that some bad faith actors in the gender identity movement don't behave in the same way.

IDareSay · 16/02/2025 14:00

Re Boswell quoted upthread talking about Whittle's claims:

"NHS Fife had a right to operate single-sex spaces under Schedule 3, Para 28 of the EqA. The legal question is whether Peggie was treated unfairly based on sex or belief—not whether NHS Fife followed its own policy."

In fact this case isn't about Schedule 3 of the EqA, it's about the Workplace regulations (section 24) of 1992, where employers are obliged to provide single sex changing facilities.

"Without prejudice to the generality of paragraph (1), the facilities mentioned in that paragraph shall not be suitable unless they include separate facilities for, or separate use of facilities by, men and women where necessary for reasons of propriety" (My bold).

www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1992/3004/regulation/24

SinnerBoy · 16/02/2025 14:02

Boiledbeetle · Today 13:42

A VISIT FROM DR DICK

Ruddy excellent, BB!

KnottyAuty · 16/02/2025 14:05

nauticant · 16/02/2025 13:10

Of course I also believe only a very small percentage of trans women have gen. dysphoria and that's a whole different issue in itself.

Before social contagion hit, the prevalence of gender dysphoria (in a properly-assessed clinical sense) was estimated as:

According to the DSM-5, among individuals who are assigned male at birth, approximately 0.005 percent to 0.014 percent are later diagnosed with gender dysphoria. Among individuals who are assigned female at birth, approximately 0.002 percent to 0.003 percent are later diagnosed with gender dysphoria. Because these estimates are based on the number of people who seek formal treatment—including hormone therapy and gender confirmation surgery—these rates are likely an underestimate.

The rate of trans-identiying people these days is often stated to be around 0.5%. If the earlier estimated prevalence of gender dysphoria were to be correct that would mean that around 1% of trans-identifying people have gender dysphoria and 99% don't.

The 0.5% figure from the UK Cencus has been questioned due to problematic question wording which is not observable in the real world.

Only 10% of all adults did not speak English as their main language, but according to the census they contributed 29% of the total number of transgender adults.

Additionally, census results suggest 1.6% of black adults were transgender and 1% of Asian adults – but only 0.4% of white adults.

https://www.sociology.ox.ac.uk/article/flawed-census-question-leads-to-inaccurate-data-on-gender-identity

HornyHornersPinkyWinky · 16/02/2025 14:05

Manxexile

It reminds me of an entry on the Talk pages of Bruce Jenner's entry in Wikipedia.
There was a massive argument between those editors who thought he shouldn't be deadnamed and that no mention of his gender reassignment should be made, and those editors who pointed out that if his reassignment was not referred to, then the reference to his winning the Olympic decathlon in 1976 would be rendered meaningless and confusing as no such event exists for female athletes.

Interestingly, if we took the hardline TRA approach of insisting that Jenner has ALWAYS been a woman, that would mean that he entered that competition fraudulently, and should hand back his medal.

But we're not supposed to apply logic and reasoning, only pandering will do.

RethinkingLife · 16/02/2025 14:08

IDareSay · 16/02/2025 14:00

Re Boswell quoted upthread talking about Whittle's claims:

"NHS Fife had a right to operate single-sex spaces under Schedule 3, Para 28 of the EqA. The legal question is whether Peggie was treated unfairly based on sex or belief—not whether NHS Fife followed its own policy."

In fact this case isn't about Schedule 3 of the EqA, it's about the Workplace regulations (section 24) of 1992, where employers are obliged to provide single sex changing facilities.

"Without prejudice to the generality of paragraph (1), the facilities mentioned in that paragraph shall not be suitable unless they include separate facilities for, or separate use of facilities by, men and women where necessary for reasons of propriety" (My bold).

www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1992/3004/regulation/24

If it would be helpful, there are extensive discussions upthread and responses from prh47bridge (?) re: the inconsistencies created by the intersection of Workplace regulations (section 24) of 1992 with other legislation.

Foran (with whom boswell has some connection) has written extensively about the provisions of Workplace regulations (section 24) of 1992 in re: this employment tribunal.

NotAGentleReminder · 16/02/2025 14:09

thenosiesttermagant · 15/02/2025 17:08

Upton's testimony could have been used as a case example of coercive control. Twisting everything NC said, even the smallest thing, to benefit him, making himself the victim (DARVO as NC so effectively pointed out) undermining accepted truths and obvious fact. In that setting it wasn't very successful (and shows a huge ego to think it would work) but in a private relationship or in a workplace already inclined to abuse their staff and deny reality and disallow free speech on this issue - very effective. I suspect it's his standard way of operating and NHS Fife clearly colludes with him in it, which is why he didn't think through the consequences of doing so in an open justice setting.

It underlines why the judge ruling that compelled / forced speech was not to be allowed was so important. This is what abusers do - they try to control everything about their victims down to their language, how they express themselves, their 'tone' but of course as SP found, victims are always in the wrong so even if you do one thing one day and it's wrong (looking at Upton) the next day the OPPOSITE will be equally wrong (avoiding looking at him). So they're made to walk on eggshells and importantly, can never win, never appease the abuser.

In terms of who harassed who the simple fact that one side tried to compel the other side to lie really should be enough for a ruling. Only one side tried to control the other side's speech. Only one side tried to get the other side to lie.

It seems to me that 'gender' ideology is a pyramid scheme of coercive control. The belief system relies on controlling the language and behaviours of others. That is why I do not think it is WORIADS as a belief.

BonfireLady · 16/02/2025 14:11

I'm still only on page 23/24 but saw a notification that you had responded to my comment. This ❤️⬇️

It has fundamentally changed me as a person.

I found it too hard to carry all of their pain along with my own and I had to step back

I still haven't listened to the Julie Bindel podcast where she talks to parents of children and adults who have been irrerversibly harmed in this mess. I've seen others say how great it is, and I really hope lots of people listen to it, but I still can't face it. I feel sick at the thought of it.

Thinking about feeling sick, I didn't see Upton myself as I didn't have access to the court feed but I absolutely second your comment (I think it was you, there have been lots of delurkers!) that this thread was so helpful in the way that is blended the TT threads with knowledge and commentary. I felt like I was reading a book, where the "character" was shared for the reader to interpret.

I fully expect The Usual Suspects to start chiming in on the (inevitable!) next thread, now that the fast pace of the court proceedings has slowed until the next stage. It'll be interesting to see what angle emerges as the go to argument. Regardless of the angle, at some point they'll have to just accept that not everyone believes we all have a gender identity and the days of forcing and coercing this onto others are numbered.

KnottyAuty · 16/02/2025 14:14

FayeRC · 16/02/2025 12:58

@HornyHornersPinkyWinky The 70k is the total estimated costs of a full court process. I need to reach just another ~£200 (so 15,770) before Monday to fully cover the journey to this point. I only campaign for what I need in each step.

So far, the crowdfunder has covered the legal fees for the first preliminary hearing, responses to further information as requested by the Respondent, medical records, disability impact statement, more further info provided on disability status, and now the second preliminary hearing next week.

So we're not far off, and I think we'll get there today.

Just popped over to Crowd Justice for a spot of gardening therapy. Your horticultural efforts are much appreciated

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 16/02/2025 14:17

PonyPatter44 · 16/02/2025 13:54

with the advent of social media we'd be likely to see a rise in extremist incidents involving autistic individuals in a range of different political areas because it encourages and exacerbates social isolation and echo chambers. Being autistic wouldn't make them extremists but it would make them more vulnerable to extremism - it's an important distinction.

This is EXACTLY what is being seen in forensic settings right now. Islamists, FREs, incels - young autistic men are being drawn into all these forms of extremism, because they have spent their whole lives feeling that they didn't fit in, and then they encounter extremist grooming online. BAM, suddenly they fit in, they have "friends" and they are part of something. There is a very similar problem with young ND men becoming involved in organised crime, for similar reasons. There is no reason to think that some bad faith actors in the gender identity movement don't behave in the same way.

I knew there was an earlier post I wanted to go back and comment on!

So, it seems like a lot of (possibly autistic) trans-identified youth are also very much drawn to unquestioning support of things like communism, extreme (i.e. destructive) climate change activism etc. So, not tipping over into completely socially unacceptable extremism, but pretty close. It really feels like there is a thread through all of this.

BonfireLady · 16/02/2025 14:17

NotAGentleReminder · 16/02/2025 14:09

It seems to me that 'gender' ideology is a pyramid scheme of coercive control. The belief system relies on controlling the language and behaviours of others. That is why I do not think it is WORIADS as a belief.

This ⬆️

It's the difference between an everyday belief in Islam and the Taliban's control on women in Afghanistan in terms of its WORIADS credentials.

There is no "just a little bit" with gender identity belief because it immediately imposes itself on everyone else, regardless of their own lack of belief in it. If I were to move to Afghanistan as a non-Muslim I would expect the same imposed effect i.e. I wouldn't be able to oppose the restrictions of the belief.

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 16/02/2025 14:22

BonfireLady · 16/02/2025 14:11

I'm still only on page 23/24 but saw a notification that you had responded to my comment. This ❤️⬇️

It has fundamentally changed me as a person.

I found it too hard to carry all of their pain along with my own and I had to step back

I still haven't listened to the Julie Bindel podcast where she talks to parents of children and adults who have been irrerversibly harmed in this mess. I've seen others say how great it is, and I really hope lots of people listen to it, but I still can't face it. I feel sick at the thought of it.

Thinking about feeling sick, I didn't see Upton myself as I didn't have access to the court feed but I absolutely second your comment (I think it was you, there have been lots of delurkers!) that this thread was so helpful in the way that is blended the TT threads with knowledge and commentary. I felt like I was reading a book, where the "character" was shared for the reader to interpret.

I fully expect The Usual Suspects to start chiming in on the (inevitable!) next thread, now that the fast pace of the court proceedings has slowed until the next stage. It'll be interesting to see what angle emerges as the go to argument. Regardless of the angle, at some point they'll have to just accept that not everyone believes we all have a gender identity and the days of forcing and coercing this onto others are numbered.

Edited

That was me! I also said that I am glad I didn’t sign up to watch, because if I’d had to actually listen to him I would have started breaking things.

NotAGentleReminder · 16/02/2025 14:27

thenosiesttermagant · 15/02/2025 19:12

I'm so sorry this happened to you and your DD. What a failure of the school's safeguarding responsibility. Heads really must roll. 💐

When I pointed this out, they tried to paint me as the safeguarding risk. DARVO. I was so glad when NC called out DARVO on Friday. It's a feature of gender ideology in practice.

Manxexile · 16/02/2025 14:27

BonfireLady · 16/02/2025 13:05

This is the line that leapt out to me as well.

A few PPs have mentioned Isla Bumba's lack of expertise in this field and her age. I'm starting to forsee a scenario unfolding where she takes on the blame and internalises it, even though it's bigger than her and she's been encouraged to think of her role and her responsibilities as "better" than the law.

She's a convenient scapegoat for those who are really responsible for these policies. I hope she's made of strong stuff and can navigate this. In theory, she's not read any of the press coverage. Yes, she might be a fully indoctrinated follower of the genderist faithful but that doesn't make her solely at fault here.
I'm hoping for her and SP's case that she has an epiphany that she was out of her depth and that not all of that is on her shoulders. If she digs in and comes to the hearing with a mindset of increased anger (seen all too often when people are in the wrong and can't admit it to themselves), I'll feel less inclined to empathise, but even then I don't want her to feel like she needs to shoulder the entirety of the blame. The NHS could shaft her here and say she should have gone to HR for legal advice because of what it says in her job spec, irrespective of the fact that she isn't accountable for the content of the policy that she is following on same v mixed sex CRs. Obviously a completely different set of circumstances, but I'm thinking of a Dr David Kelly scenario when it comes to the potential impact of overwhelm when something controversial is being picked apart in the press and has become a national/international talking point.

Edited

Yes. I'm wondering what sort of showing she will make when giving evidence.

I'm reminded a bit about one of the trustees who gave evidence in the ERCC tribunal.

I can't remember her name but she was very young and inexperienced and I think had gone straight into a trustee post after graduating from Edinburgh University.

She started off bright and chirpy sounding like "Everybody must agree with us because we're obviously correct" but visibly became more and more uncertain and less confident as she began to realise that not everybody did agree with the approach taken by the trustees.

I ended up feeling sorry for her.

HornyHornersPinkyWinky · 16/02/2025 14:32

FayeRC · 16/02/2025 12:58

@HornyHornersPinkyWinky The 70k is the total estimated costs of a full court process. I need to reach just another ~£200 (so 15,770) before Monday to fully cover the journey to this point. I only campaign for what I need in each step.

So far, the crowdfunder has covered the legal fees for the first preliminary hearing, responses to further information as requested by the Respondent, medical records, disability impact statement, more further info provided on disability status, and now the second preliminary hearing next week.

So we're not far off, and I think we'll get there today.

Fingers crossed you'll get there today, have just donated again.

whospayingjanerussell · 16/02/2025 14:34

Would that have been Katie Horsburgh?

RedToothBrush · 16/02/2025 14:35

PonyPatter44 · 16/02/2025 13:54

with the advent of social media we'd be likely to see a rise in extremist incidents involving autistic individuals in a range of different political areas because it encourages and exacerbates social isolation and echo chambers. Being autistic wouldn't make them extremists but it would make them more vulnerable to extremism - it's an important distinction.

This is EXACTLY what is being seen in forensic settings right now. Islamists, FREs, incels - young autistic men are being drawn into all these forms of extremism, because they have spent their whole lives feeling that they didn't fit in, and then they encounter extremist grooming online. BAM, suddenly they fit in, they have "friends" and they are part of something. There is a very similar problem with young ND men becoming involved in organised crime, for similar reasons. There is no reason to think that some bad faith actors in the gender identity movement don't behave in the same way.

Quite.

nebulousMoose · 16/02/2025 14:36

RedToothBrush · 16/02/2025 09:51

Bounty is a particularly good example because the NHS made the assumption that women in a vulnerable state felt able to say no and the default position was to put the onus on them to advocate rather than the default being to safeguard and then allow women to make choices without being in a pressured situation. The NHS couldn't see the problem and went into denial and was obstructive when the problem was raised because it didn't go through the approved complaint process. There was no understanding of why the complaints process would fail to pick up dissent.

The whole thing about EDI is that it is supposed to be tuned to and pick up on invisibility. In order to do that, you need to actually listen though. It's a grass roots process not a top down telling people how to behave process.

We see massive issues in the NHS which centre around informed consent on a general basis. It touches on a huge number of subjects. The latest one is assisted dying. And my ongoing concerns about assisted dying are precisely because there is an institutional level issue within the NHS surrounding the ethics of consent - particularly around this point of undue pressure.

Whilst people might grasp consent is about saying yes, they don't grasp that saying nothing or saying yes in certain situations does not necessarily mean valid consent has been given. Equally a lack of complaint does not equal a satisfaction with the situation for many similar reasons.

The fear factor is one we need to understand and acknowledge better.

Yes.
And this post also relates to the impossibility of giving informed consent when a person is vulnerable, ill, their thinking is compromised:

Thread 15

NotMaroonButRaspberry · 09:07

"I've thought about this a lot.
I am no wallflower. I suspect many people find me quite irritating - I'm the one who always has a question at the end of a talk, always emails the school back, happily tells off the kids in the park while my own DC cringe etc
I'm assertive, confident and don't care much what other people think of me
I'm also a hcp with 25 years of NHS service.
But when I have been very ill and vulnerable, I have found myself completely unable to advocate for myself. I have put up with substandard care, nodded along to things I don't agree with in appointments and left completely unsatisfied or confused about the next steps or plan. I found myself unable to speak up and articulate my wants, needs or concerns.
I just can't believe that there is even a suggestion that vulnerable women are expected to repeat and nuance their consent over and over again when in the situation of their request for same sex care being blatantly overridden. If she doesn't speak up enough times with a detailed enough explanation (using approved terms) then tough luck. Revolting."

The quote above was specifically about same-sex care and consent, but @bonfirelady and @RedToothBrush make further very important points with their posts.

Needspaceforlego · 16/02/2025 14:37

NebulousDogwhistle · 16/02/2025 11:59

There is an heirloom ring that always goes to the eldest girl and the teenage daughter expects it and was borrowing it to wear to her prom. Enter older brother who now identifies as big sister...

Even the GRA itself specifically excludes primogeniture. The eldest daughter cannot identify into being the eldest son to inherit.

Although the Twitter example is to the detriment of the female child whereas primogeniture benefits the male so it's probably totally OK then 🙄

Edited

I need that WTF face again!

NoWordForFluffy · 16/02/2025 14:38
Stand Up What GIF by 800 Pound Gorilla Media

Will this do?!

Manxexile · 16/02/2025 14:40

NoWordForFluffy · 16/02/2025 13:11

Isla Bumba is only a witness, not a respondent, giving evidence on behalf of the NHS. The NHS as her employer is responsible for the advice she gave and the actions she took / told others to take. They can't make her a scapegoat without admitting they were at fault themselves.

Edited

Yes but I wouldn't underestimate the ability of NHS institutions to point the finger at an individual and say "Yes we accept that we are ultimately corporately accountable for these failures, but it was this individual acting without proper authority and outside her remit who was responsible for them in the first place".

I've seen it happen

BonfireLady · 16/02/2025 14:42

NotAGentleReminder · 15/02/2025 18:18

DD's old school is Stonewall Schools Champion and affirmed her male ID against my wishes and concerns for her MH. They parroted all the 'Stonelaw' at me when I complained. It was a surreal and very stressful experience having professionals I had entrusted with my daughter's education and in loco parentis during school hours, try to justify referring to my daughter as 'he', simultaneously deny they were doing this, and tell me that calling her the new male 'trans' name was just the same as using an abbreviation of a birth name and no big deal. Then calling social services about me when I didn't go along with it. And telling me school was my daughter's only 'safe space' because home was 'hostile'.
I want heads to roll at Stonewall.

Fuckers.

I really hope heads do roll wherever schools have contributed towards the safeguarding risks facing vulnerable children like yours and mine. That you/I get reported to Social Services as a risk to our own children when we're the ones trying to actually safeguard them is the shitty icing on the cake.

And breathe.

Perhaps I need a Tunnocks bar. Apologies to all aficionados but I've never actually had one <ducks and runs, in the hope that this confession will be forgotten when we get to the next thread 🏃🏿‍♀️>

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