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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #19

1000 replies

nauticant · 14/02/2025 18:06

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It seems that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July but it wasn't completely clear whether it might end a day or two later.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18

OP posts:
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15
Proudtobeanortherner · 16/02/2025 11:34

Am I being paranoid when I see that the Darlington nurses case is also not coming back to court until June/July?
What all around the same time?

Chrysanthemum5 · 16/02/2025 11:35

For me the dead name thing reminds me of the situation of woman who leaves an abusive marriage. She may not want to have reminders of the man who abused her but her children may have his surname, she may find she has to keep his surname as doctors surgeries and passport offices etc seem to have issues with mothers having a different surname to their child. So she is constantly being reminded of a past she wants to leave behind

The difference is that no one in power gives a shiny shit about her preferences. There are no special edicts ensuring people are extra kind and don't use the name that she hates. No one makes policies based on how she might feel

Merrymouse · 16/02/2025 11:43

KnottyAuty · 16/02/2025 11:10

It is a genuine thing tho according to the paper themselves:

https://www.scottishdailyexpress.co.uk/news/scottish-news/scottish-express-reported-police-referring-34687715#source=breaking-news

edited to add that they’ve been threatened with Judicial Review.

And to quote from the article: Ms Peggie and her legal team have referred to Dr Upton as a man throughout the hearings, while NHS Fife's lawyers have used female pronouns. Quite apart from any reasons of accuracy and gender critical feminism, this can make reports difficult to follow for readers.

Edited

I think the BBC have a policy of following the practice of the court. (We learn when they use the preferred pronouns of convicted raptists)

Looks like the Scottish Daily Express are just doing the same...

teawamutu · 16/02/2025 11:45

MorrisZapp · 16/02/2025 10:16

Oh dear god the performative lovelies on the Sali Hughes facebook are at it again. 'My son has said he's trans and I feel terrible that I didn't realise he was actually a girl earlier. How can I make it up to her?' Cue rainbow and kindness meltdown and praise for being the best mum ever. One polite comment recommending looking at the Cass review regarding transition was immediately locked by admins.

Women are capable of the most depressing groupthink if it earns them likes and lovehearts.

Be kind is fucking poison.

I want that last sentence on either a cushion or a t-shirt. Anyone know if Famous Artist Birdy Rose walks among us? She'd do a lovely job.

misscockerspaniel · 16/02/2025 11:46

It is interesting seeing what we each take from Upton's evidence. For me, it was the amount of times he used the word "respect", which reeks of male entitlement and has Andrew Tate vibes. How often is there a post on MN, saying that a DH/BF has accused the poster of not respecting them? Such posts are usually followed by a chorus of LTB.

FannyCann · 16/02/2025 11:46

Thinking about it more @RedToothBrush
I'm going to guess she may have revalidated in 23 - assuming she was still able to get trust support to do so, she would have met most of the requirements by the time she went off assuming she had been doing regular CPD.
Reason being I revalidated in 23.
I think for everyone who was already on the register when revalidation was introduced we all revalidate at the same time every three years. Nurses who qualified subsequent to that will revalidate every 3 years after their registration date. So I would think Sandie must be in the same tranche as everyone else who was already on the register.
That would make her next revalidation due around August 26.
Hopefully she'll have a judgment by the end of the year which will give her about seven months to get in 450 hours work and all the CPD and other requirements. She would be able to keep up her CPD whilst not working if she attends some conferences and study days as well as private study. So she should be OK.

TheCourseOfTheRiverChanged · 16/02/2025 11:51

@Sortumn that is a more compassionate insight into the mind of a "be kind"-er than I could ever manage on my own, so thank you.

duc748 · 16/02/2025 11:53

KnottyAuty · 16/02/2025 10:36

No worries!

The BeKind thing has been turning over in my mind. I said up thread (or 10) that Kind and Nice are different things.

To me Kind is caring for someone and having their best interests at heart. That includes respect and healthy boundaries. Sometimes it means saying no and having difficult conversations. It’s honest and authentic.

Being Nice is smiling along, nodding and agreeing with everything. To me it means either not maintaining boundaries or maintaining a pretence of agreement. It’s passive and has the “nice” person’s own interests at heart - rewards of praise, likeability, survival, acceptance etc.

It’s a shame that BeKind has been hijacked

Much like parenting, in fact.

KnottyAuty · 16/02/2025 11:53

FannyCann · 16/02/2025 11:25

Another thing that has just occurred to me - Sandie basically hasn't worked since January 23 - she's on paid suspension isn't she? I think she rejected offers to come back on days under supervision etc, so she hasn't worked (as a nurse) since then?

This case is dragging on, now to July and it will be months after that that the ruling finally comes out. So she likely will not have worked for two years by the end of it. No idea what her plans might be by then - I personally wouldn't want to work with ED ever again, but she could choose a different area or apply to another hospital if they would have her after this. (Even if she wins, she may well be tainted from an employment point of view).

She may have had to revalidate in the last year or it could be coming up this year or next. You have to have done 450 hours work in the revalidation 3 year period, as well as various other requirements including CPD and being signed off by a manager or peer.

It will be very difficult I would think for her to revalidate while this is going on, with probably all her work colleagues and managers being advised not to communicate with her (even if they do side with her secretly). If she is off work more than two years with re validation around the corner she will need to get those hours in without delay plus all the CPD and face to face training that is meant to be done. She also should have been doing the hospital required learning eg annual resuscitation training etc

In short she is at risk of losing her registration through no fault of her own, due to the length of her suspension.

It's really hard to get back on the register once you are off (eg if you don't submit revalidation in time as opposed to to being struck off) and she could have to do a Back to Nursing course to get back!

I'm sure she will be aware and weighing up her options, but it's just an added layer of complications for her.

She has been working - but not being in A&E is one of the detriments in the case.

Kind that you’re looking out for her tho

Needspaceforlego · 16/02/2025 11:54

FannyCann · 16/02/2025 11:32

Re siblings I saw something on X about a family argument. There is an heirloom ring that always goes to the eldest girl and the teenage daughter expects it and was borrowing it to wear to her prom. Enter older brother who now identifies as big sister...

Apparently younger sister ended up saying transphobic things and family meltdown ensued.
I think we all know where our sympathies would lie in such a case. 🙄

Well as long as the same rules apply to the house and the younger sister just needs to identify as the eldest son! All will be grand.

What a piece of nonsense.

NebulousDogwhistle · 16/02/2025 11:59

There is an heirloom ring that always goes to the eldest girl and the teenage daughter expects it and was borrowing it to wear to her prom. Enter older brother who now identifies as big sister...

Even the GRA itself specifically excludes primogeniture. The eldest daughter cannot identify into being the eldest son to inherit.

Although the Twitter example is to the detriment of the female child whereas primogeniture benefits the male so it's probably totally OK then 🙄

RethinkingLife · 16/02/2025 12:02

Excellent exchange between Maya Forstater (MF) and Stephen Whittle (SW) re: deadnaming as an act of criminal harassment.

I can't upload screenshots (MN still having problems) and my security software blocks nitter. As a starter, MF quote tweets SW. (The thread is worth reading for those who can. MF meticulously responds on a range of topics. There's also an incident in there of SW offering to support someone in interacting with Macdonalds which may explain an earlier enquiry about a TransReddit claim about many "successes" in claiming against businesses.)

MF: Prof Whittle appears to be arguing individuals shouldn't be able to held liable for sexual harassment if their inappropriate behaviour was sanctioned by their employer. This is not what the Equality Act says.

QTs SW: 1. This is a a Civil claim for discrimination, not a Criminal Trial Dr Beth Upton did het job as instructed & is NOT on trial for anything I believe the Court should not have allowed Dr Upton to be named a co-respondent as Dr Upton is not the employer of Nurse Peggie /

2. Being neither the employer, or a provider of goods, services, housing or facilities to Peggie IMHO at a prelim hearing the Court should have insisted Upton was not named a co-respondent. Dr Upton is at most, a witness to the events, who followed the lead of NHS Fife

3. NHS Fife made a correct call in telling Dr Upton they should use the women’s facilities once she had permanently transitioned to living as a woman It is up to Peggie (P) to show that NHS Fife treated her differently from either - a man in their employment, OR /

4. - a person without P’s religious or other beliefs. As the provider of single sex facilities, NHS Fife wete within their right not to use any potential exemption contained in the Eq Act which MAY have allowed them to ask Dr Upton & other TP use alternative facilities /

5. It is up to P to bring a successful claim by showing that: - as a woman she was treated differently from a man & to her detriment Or - NHS Fife failed to take account of her belief - a belief that must be shown to be ‘worthy of respect’

6. A sex discrimination claim must fail. as presumably a trans man who had permantly transitioned would have been instructed to change in the men’s facilities. As for belief - is P’s belief ‘worthy of respect’ - maybe - Was NHS Fife informed. In advance … /

7. … by P that she held that belief? /maybe IMHO naming Dr Upton as a co- respondent was gratuitous & completely irrelevant to the claims made IMHO calling Dr Upton to give evidence was also entirely gratuitous. Her evidence was not relevant to any claim made for sex … /

8. … discrimination or for a claim made under ‘religious or other belief’ Nobody was claiming that Dr Upton was anything other than a trans woman That could & should have been confirmed at a preliminary hearing This case was not really about Peggie, it has been... /

9. … a way of publicly humiliating Dr Upton Whatever the tribunal finds IMHO we have seen the truth about those who hold GC beliefs P & her barrister Naomi Cunningham both are part of the GC ‘sex realists’ attack on our right to exist

10. They are determined to destroy TPs right to autonomy & self determination, equality, respect, privacy & dignity

x.com/MForstater/status/1891077189421965746

RedToothBrush · 16/02/2025 12:03

misscockerspaniel · 16/02/2025 11:46

It is interesting seeing what we each take from Upton's evidence. For me, it was the amount of times he used the word "respect", which reeks of male entitlement and has Andrew Tate vibes. How often is there a post on MN, saying that a DH/BF has accused the poster of not respecting them? Such posts are usually followed by a chorus of LTB.

The parallels with incelism and trans genderism are both fascinating and disturbing. It's not a coincidence they have occurred at the same time in history.

Cismyfatarse · 16/02/2025 12:03

Waitwhat23 · 16/02/2025 10:42

I sincerely hope the TAs try to take on a newspaper and do force some sort of court showdown. It will force the law to clarify that deadnaming is not a crime; calling a man a man is not a crime or an insult. Reality bites?

RethinkingLife · 16/02/2025 12:06

Proudtobeanortherner · 16/02/2025 11:34

Am I being paranoid when I see that the Darlington nurses case is also not coming back to court until June/July?
What all around the same time?

Barristers have very difficult diaries. I'm amazed this ET is managing a day in April and then 2 full weeks in July.

Is it known which barristers and solicitors have been instructed for Darlington?

guinnessguzzler · 16/02/2025 12:10

misscockerspaniel · 16/02/2025 11:46

It is interesting seeing what we each take from Upton's evidence. For me, it was the amount of times he used the word "respect", which reeks of male entitlement and has Andrew Tate vibes. How often is there a post on MN, saying that a DH/BF has accused the poster of not respecting them? Such posts are usually followed by a chorus of LTB.

Agree completely. More than a few times over the last week or so, this quote has popped into my head; 'Sometimes people use "respect" to mean "treating someone like a person" and sometimes to mean "treating someone like an authority". For some, "if you don't respect me, I won't respect you" means "if you don't treat me like an authority, I won't treat you like a person" '. I'm not sure of its origins (I came across it in a meme!) and I suspect TRAs would intend to direct it at 'Karens' and 'Boomers' but I really do think it is relevant here. Ultimately Dr U requires everyone to respect his view of himself, ie treat him as the authority on that and therefore view it as fact, whilst trying to make it sound like all he is asking for is to be treated like a person. At the same time, he doesn't seem willing to extend either type of respect to Sandie!

HornyHornersPinkyWinky · 16/02/2025 12:13

Needspaceforlego · 16/02/2025 11:54

Well as long as the same rules apply to the house and the younger sister just needs to identify as the eldest son! All will be grand.

What a piece of nonsense.

It's interesting you say that, as under the rules of the GRA the only two exceptions (as I recall) are primogeniture and religious leaders.

Basically, women cannot 'identify up' into a privileged positions - women who identify as men still cannot inherit aristocratic titles, land etc. nor can they become priests.

The enactors of this law knew exactly what they were doing, it was all about appeasing men.

FayeRC · 16/02/2025 12:13

I've got a very similar case in England's side. If you'd like to know more, please search for Faye Russell-Caldicott or see my other thread: Employment Tribunal Case to Protect Single-Sex Facilities at Work | Mumsnet

It's the last weekend before my second preliminary hearing next week. Your support would be hugely appreciated, with only a little bit left to reach the interim target.

KnottyAuty · 16/02/2025 12:18

Chrysanthemum5 · 16/02/2025 11:35

For me the dead name thing reminds me of the situation of woman who leaves an abusive marriage. She may not want to have reminders of the man who abused her but her children may have his surname, she may find she has to keep his surname as doctors surgeries and passport offices etc seem to have issues with mothers having a different surname to their child. So she is constantly being reminded of a past she wants to leave behind

The difference is that no one in power gives a shiny shit about her preferences. There are no special edicts ensuring people are extra kind and don't use the name that she hates. No one makes policies based on how she might feel

That’s a good thought that needs to be put out there. If TW get this for their gender trauma then it should also be available to others for similar reasons.

If everyone needs to change their details for their own feelings it exposes the nonsense

teawamutu · 16/02/2025 12:19

For some, "if you don't respect me, I won't respect you" means "if you don't treat me like an authority, I won't treat you like a person"

This right here is yet another example of the insights on MN being far superior to anything in the MSM.

mrshoho · 16/02/2025 12:20

HornyHornersPinkyWinky · 16/02/2025 12:13

It's interesting you say that, as under the rules of the GRA the only two exceptions (as I recall) are primogeniture and religious leaders.

Basically, women cannot 'identify up' into a privileged positions - women who identify as men still cannot inherit aristocratic titles, land etc. nor can they become priests.

The enactors of this law knew exactly what they were doing, it was all about appeasing men.

Yes the blatant hypocrisy made the GRA a farce from the start. A male who changes his gender and the world has to by law go along with charade except when it comes to an inherited title. In this case he most definitely is still Male. What an absolute joke. Men are forever the winner.

FannyCann · 16/02/2025 12:21

She has been working - but not being in A&E is one of the detriments in the case.

Oh that's good @KnottyAuty

Hope she likes wherever she is, but years off work probably wouldn't be good for her.

I'm sure I read somewhere that she was still on paid leave but I imagine it was from someone who didn't know the facts.

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 16/02/2025 12:21

CheekySnake · 16/02/2025 09:53

Are they a subgroup, though? How do we know? I'm personally very uncomfortable with the idea that we can remove that motive from some men who pretend to be women. Some of them openly admit the motive is sexual. Some of them say it isn't but then display behaviours that suggest otherwise. And no-one is a sex offender until they commit a sexual offence and get caught.

Well indeed. It is similar to “not all men.” I know that there seem to be different routes and motivations for IDing as the opposite sex, but there’s nothing to say that someone might not have multiple motivations, and additionally, as no one wears big signs declaring their motivation, from a purely risk assessment point of view we have to make the assumption that they all potentially fly out of Malaga. Unfair as that might be on those who don’t.

KnottyAuty · 16/02/2025 12:23

fanOfBen · 16/02/2025 11:14

Thinking about this a bit more, I think my concern, that is in the intersection of concerns about (some applications of) the social model of disability and concerns about gender ideology, is to do with the use of labels to deny reality and compel certain behaviour from others.

I'm not so much thinking about physical disability - it's more obvious when we look at students, say, who have "reasonable adjustments" because they have disability labels like ADHD, dyslexia and/or autism. Some, not all, of those students seem to take the view that, given the label, other people have a duty to bend reality into what it would be if they had ideal abilities in the areas where actually they have deficits. So it's not enough that they get extensions, permission to use proof-readers, whatever; it is an affront, and must be someone else's fault, if they ever do less well than a peer and can see that as being caused by the disability. (E.g., you gave me an extension on piece of work X but that meant I had less time to work on the next piece, Y - you failed to issue me with my time-turner, in effect.) The key thing is that it's the label that enables the attitude. If the student didn't have a disability severe enough to get the label, but was just a bit crap at spelling/organising themselves/communicating, whatever, they and everyone else would take it as perfectly natural that they didn't do quite as well as a peer who was better at those things. So there are two satisfactory states: skills which are good enough to do well, and skills which are bad enough to get a label, and in between, there is a middle ground which is less desirable than either. I emphasise that I'm not saying every student with a disability label views it this way, but I've met plenty for whom this seems explanatory.

Rather similar, it seems to me, is the adoption of trans as a label. It's saying, I'm not just a bit uncomfortable with my body, like other girls - it's not just that I hate my breasts or wish I didn't have periods or hate my broken voice or my thick penis - it's that I am trans, and it's your job to make me feel fine and turn the world into a world where I am comfortable. Again, we have two satisfactory states: the (largely imaginary) one where someone has a gender identity that accords with their sex assigned at birth, and feels comfortable in their skin, and the one where someone is uncomfortable enough to deserve the "trans" label. In between, there's a middle ground that is less desirable than either - not being trans, not special, but just not very comfortable in your skin or with your place in society.

In both cases, it's great to accept the wide variety of humans and use looking at that properly to try to adjust the world to better suit more people, where we can - but using labels to deny reality is really a hiding to nothing, especially where there is no Platonic reality to whether someone "deserves" the label.

^^ wot she said most eloquently

love this thread 🥰

HornyHornersPinkyWinky · 16/02/2025 12:24

FayeRC · 16/02/2025 12:13

I've got a very similar case in England's side. If you'd like to know more, please search for Faye Russell-Caldicott or see my other thread: Employment Tribunal Case to Protect Single-Sex Facilities at Work | Mumsnet

It's the last weekend before my second preliminary hearing next week. Your support would be hugely appreciated, with only a little bit left to reach the interim target.

Hi Faye, I've just been reading your thread - what's the amount you need to reach by next week?
Your case page says 70,000 - presumably you don't need to get to that just yet?

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