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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #19

1000 replies

nauticant · 14/02/2025 18:06

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It seems that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July but it wasn't completely clear whether it might end a day or two later.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18

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15
Brainworm · 16/02/2025 11:03

I had a sudden thought that TRA were somehow tapping into that concept in persuading others to change/enable for them. Am I even making sense?!

It does make sense. I think TRAs lean more into Critical Theory than the social model of disability, but they do attribute their victim hood to this too.

CT emphasises the role of power and oppression, whereby powerful groups disable marginalised groups with the intent to maintain their power. The social model attributes the disabling impact to ignorance and bad attitudes.

KnottyAuty · 16/02/2025 11:03

fanOfBen · 16/02/2025 10:47

You are. It's the simultaneous evocation of "I'm at a disadvantage so it's your job to make it up to me" AND "how dare you suggest that I'm at a disadvantage, I'm only at a disadvantage because society" that is going on, and I'm afraid it's poisonous in both cases.

Gosh I’m really thinking hard today - that evocation is at the heart of the EA….

FannyCann · 16/02/2025 11:05

Still catching up, so sorry if it's already been discussed.
But I think the Darlington nurses case is due in July so I presume it will go ahead at about the same time Sandie's case resumes.

It's a shame one or other of the cases won't have been resolved before the other. Won't there be implications/precedent set - depending on the outcome?
What happens if one wins and the other fails?

Given this policy if trans people using the changing room of their "acquired" gender is pretty much embedded throughout the NHS?

spannasaurus · 16/02/2025 11:07

Arran2024 · 16/02/2025 10:55

https://x.com/SEENpoliceUK/status/1890831030862430420

They want the police to investigate the Scottish Daily Express for harrassment of Dr Upton!

Just in case posters are unaware, that's not the SEEN police network x account.

KnottyAuty · 16/02/2025 11:10

It is a genuine thing tho according to the paper themselves:

https://www.scottishdailyexpress.co.uk/news/scottish-news/scottish-express-reported-police-referring-34687715#source=breaking-news

edited to add that they’ve been threatened with Judicial Review.

And to quote from the article: Ms Peggie and her legal team have referred to Dr Upton as a man throughout the hearings, while NHS Fife's lawyers have used female pronouns. Quite apart from any reasons of accuracy and gender critical feminism, this can make reports difficult to follow for readers.

Occasionalnamechanger · 16/02/2025 11:12

fanOfBen · 16/02/2025 10:39

Yes, but take this one step further: I know the social model of disability is popular and I see why it's attractive, but it's largely incorrect, isn't it? We call certain people disabled because they lack abilities that most of us have. In your example, no, if the world were set up for people in wheelchairs I wouldn't be disabled; I'd just use a wheelchair when convenient. It is objectively better to have the choice to walk when you want to, and we don't serve anyone's needs by pretending otherwise.

I think you're over simplifying. I don't think the social model of disability denies that there are differences between being disabled and not. Just that it is society that often makes something a disability and not a difference. The example often given is short sightedness. Few people would describe that as a disability because our society is set up with a really good system of opticians/access to glasses or contacts etc. And while 20/20 vision would be better, not having it isn't disabling.

And the idea is to prompt us to think of ways we can move more disabilities into the same class as short sightedness - how can society adapt to have space for a greater variety of people?

rebmacesrevda · 16/02/2025 11:12

I expect they sought legal advice prior to publication. It'll be interesting to see what police think of it...

spannasaurus · 16/02/2025 11:13

KnottyAuty · 16/02/2025 11:10

It is a genuine thing tho according to the paper themselves:

https://www.scottishdailyexpress.co.uk/news/scottish-news/scottish-express-reported-police-referring-34687715#source=breaking-news

edited to add that they’ve been threatened with Judicial Review.

And to quote from the article: Ms Peggie and her legal team have referred to Dr Upton as a man throughout the hearings, while NHS Fife's lawyers have used female pronouns. Quite apart from any reasons of accuracy and gender critical feminism, this can make reports difficult to follow for readers.

Edited

The report to the police is genuine. The x account belongs to a TRA and is nothing to do with the Police SEEN network

fanOfBen · 16/02/2025 11:14

Thinking about this a bit more, I think my concern, that is in the intersection of concerns about (some applications of) the social model of disability and concerns about gender ideology, is to do with the use of labels to deny reality and compel certain behaviour from others.

I'm not so much thinking about physical disability - it's more obvious when we look at students, say, who have "reasonable adjustments" because they have disability labels like ADHD, dyslexia and/or autism. Some, not all, of those students seem to take the view that, given the label, other people have a duty to bend reality into what it would be if they had ideal abilities in the areas where actually they have deficits. So it's not enough that they get extensions, permission to use proof-readers, whatever; it is an affront, and must be someone else's fault, if they ever do less well than a peer and can see that as being caused by the disability. (E.g., you gave me an extension on piece of work X but that meant I had less time to work on the next piece, Y - you failed to issue me with my time-turner, in effect.) The key thing is that it's the label that enables the attitude. If the student didn't have a disability severe enough to get the label, but was just a bit crap at spelling/organising themselves/communicating, whatever, they and everyone else would take it as perfectly natural that they didn't do quite as well as a peer who was better at those things. So there are two satisfactory states: skills which are good enough to do well, and skills which are bad enough to get a label, and in between, there is a middle ground which is less desirable than either. I emphasise that I'm not saying every student with a disability label views it this way, but I've met plenty for whom this seems explanatory.

Rather similar, it seems to me, is the adoption of trans as a label. It's saying, I'm not just a bit uncomfortable with my body, like other girls - it's not just that I hate my breasts or wish I didn't have periods or hate my broken voice or my thick penis - it's that I am trans, and it's your job to make me feel fine and turn the world into a world where I am comfortable. Again, we have two satisfactory states: the (largely imaginary) one where someone has a gender identity that accords with their sex assigned at birth, and feels comfortable in their skin, and the one where someone is uncomfortable enough to deserve the "trans" label. In between, there's a middle ground that is less desirable than either - not being trans, not special, but just not very comfortable in your skin or with your place in society.

In both cases, it's great to accept the wide variety of humans and use looking at that properly to try to adjust the world to better suit more people, where we can - but using labels to deny reality is really a hiding to nothing, especially where there is no Platonic reality to whether someone "deserves" the label.

borntobequiet · 16/02/2025 11:15

spannasaurus · 16/02/2025 11:07

Just in case posters are unaware, that's not the SEEN police network x account.

I did wonder, given the complaint.

Media may report it as they’re not sure of what SEEN is supposed to represent.

As others have commented, it’s an own goal anyway, as people may perceive it as bullying, especially when pronouns weren’t enforced in the actual court. What a duff move.

KnottyAuty · 16/02/2025 11:15

Occasionalnamechanger · 16/02/2025 11:12

I think you're over simplifying. I don't think the social model of disability denies that there are differences between being disabled and not. Just that it is society that often makes something a disability and not a difference. The example often given is short sightedness. Few people would describe that as a disability because our society is set up with a really good system of opticians/access to glasses or contacts etc. And while 20/20 vision would be better, not having it isn't disabling.

And the idea is to prompt us to think of ways we can move more disabilities into the same class as short sightedness - how can society adapt to have space for a greater variety of people?

Exactly DU’s point - that sex is nebulous so everything should be inclusive. 🤮 from someone so privileged

Arran2024 · 16/02/2025 11:16

DeanElderberry · 16/02/2025 10:56

If the person being adopted is a young adult, as gender transitioners are, destroying their old identity seems cruel and potentially harmful. Their earlier self is not dead, any more than the pre-transition self, the pre-marriage woman, the pre-life in religion woman or man is.

Why act as though they are entering a witness protection programme when they aren't?

Adoption in infancy is not a comparable situation.

I am not saying it is OK. I have 2 adopted children and i understand the adoption issues, and what I am saying is that trans GR certificate for example is based on the adoption model, where a new legal identity is created, and the old name isn't. I'm just trying to explain that the trans movement has used the adoption model.

KnottyAuty · 16/02/2025 11:18

borntobequiet · 16/02/2025 11:15

I did wonder, given the complaint.

Media may report it as they’re not sure of what SEEN is supposed to represent.

As others have commented, it’s an own goal anyway, as people may perceive it as bullying, especially when pronouns weren’t enforced in the actual court. What a duff move.

I think it’s a wonderful move - although not what was intended. Now along with imagining themselves in a changing room with Pete the Plumber, they’re now outraged that the police will arrest them for daring to mention it instead of Pete… own goal back of the net

Needspaceforlego · 16/02/2025 11:18

KnottyAuty · 16/02/2025 11:10

It is a genuine thing tho according to the paper themselves:

https://www.scottishdailyexpress.co.uk/news/scottish-news/scottish-express-reported-police-referring-34687715#source=breaking-news

edited to add that they’ve been threatened with Judicial Review.

And to quote from the article: Ms Peggie and her legal team have referred to Dr Upton as a man throughout the hearings, while NHS Fife's lawyers have used female pronouns. Quite apart from any reasons of accuracy and gender critical feminism, this can make reports difficult to follow for readers.

Edited

I might even buy a paper today

KnottyAuty · 16/02/2025 11:20

Needspaceforlego · 16/02/2025 11:18

I might even buy a paper today

What else can we do to support their stance?

BonfireLady · 16/02/2025 11:22

What am AMAZING thread. I thought it was going to get a bit less interesting when this phase of the hearing came to an end. But nope.

I'm still not at the end, but inspired by the brilliant posters on here, I'm going to share an open letter to Keir Starmer.

Dear Keir,

If only you'd listened to Rosie, eh? You had plenty of time to figure out why it was important to understand what a woman is (personal preference aside. Although I assume you've got an opinion on whether you'd date a woman who has a penis if you were single?) but you didn't listen.

Don't worry! The magnificent posters on MN are here to help. Effective immediately, please hand the reins to RedToothbrush in a caretaker capacity. I appreciate she's unelected and this is effectively a coup but please cry about that to prh47bridge and we'll come back to you with an appeal process in due course. Nauticant will support all national proceedings from now on to ensure fairness, with Iccky in charge of transparency. Boiledbeetle will compile Contemporaneous Notes from all the other fantastic contributors to this board so that we have a clear record of this pivotal moment in history. These will be delivered in the form of poetry (shameless plug volumes 1 and 2 are already available on Amazon! Just Google "under the duvet of darkness") and AI GIFs.

On a related point, I'm sure you'll agree that protecting children is important, so please ensure a smooth handover from the utter incompetence of Bridget Phillipson to the capable hands of MrsO to support schools on all matters relating to safeguarding and education. It's time to get this harmful belief out of schools and limit the number of vulnerable children and young people who we're still sending on a pathway into the appalling medical scandal of "gender affirming care".

Feel free to run all of this by Tony Blair. I'm aware that my username is a bit of a giveaway that I'm a woman and that it's not always easy to understand what we're saying.

Oh, and you can let Wes Streeting know he's welcome to stay if he wants to BTW.

Yours, with a mix of exasperation, anger and optimism,

BonfireLady

JasmineAllen · 16/02/2025 11:24

MustBeThursday · 16/02/2025 09:53

It strikes me that so much of this "deadnaming" and right to privacy about trans status etc relies very much on the assumption that the person is completely unrecognisable as their actual sex so it can be a complete secret and anyone who disagrees with them being fully accepted does so only out of transphobia and not because their actual sex is obvious. Which just isn't the case most of the time. Certainly not where the person has not undergone any medical transition.

It's one of the things I found bizarre in the ERCC case - did the "non-binary" staff member think no one could see they were female?

I agree. It's ludicrous as 99.9% of the time you csn easily tell and that 0.1% you can tell as soon as you see them walk because of their male musculoskeletal framework.

FannyCann · 16/02/2025 11:25

Another thing that has just occurred to me - Sandie basically hasn't worked since January 23 - she's on paid suspension isn't she? I think she rejected offers to come back on days under supervision etc, so she hasn't worked (as a nurse) since then?

This case is dragging on, now to July and it will be months after that that the ruling finally comes out. So she likely will not have worked for two years by the end of it. No idea what her plans might be by then - I personally wouldn't want to work with ED ever again, but she could choose a different area or apply to another hospital if they would have her after this. (Even if she wins, she may well be tainted from an employment point of view).

She may have had to revalidate in the last year or it could be coming up this year or next. You have to have done 450 hours work in the revalidation 3 year period, as well as various other requirements including CPD and being signed off by a manager or peer.

It will be very difficult I would think for her to revalidate while this is going on, with probably all her work colleagues and managers being advised not to communicate with her (even if they do side with her secretly). If she is off work more than two years with re validation around the corner she will need to get those hours in without delay plus all the CPD and face to face training that is meant to be done. She also should have been doing the hospital required learning eg annual resuscitation training etc

In short she is at risk of losing her registration through no fault of her own, due to the length of her suspension.

It's really hard to get back on the register once you are off (eg if you don't submit revalidation in time as opposed to to being struck off) and she could have to do a Back to Nursing course to get back!

I'm sure she will be aware and weighing up her options, but it's just an added layer of complications for her.

PrettyDamnCosmic · 16/02/2025 11:27

KnottyAuty · 16/02/2025 11:10

It is a genuine thing tho according to the paper themselves:

https://www.scottishdailyexpress.co.uk/news/scottish-news/scottish-express-reported-police-referring-34687715#source=breaking-news

edited to add that they’ve been threatened with Judicial Review.

And to quote from the article: Ms Peggie and her legal team have referred to Dr Upton as a man throughout the hearings, while NHS Fife's lawyers have used female pronouns. Quite apart from any reasons of accuracy and gender critical feminism, this can make reports difficult to follow for readers.

Edited

They have actually threatened Police Scotland with a Judicial Review not the Scottish Daily Express.

DeanElderberry · 16/02/2025 11:27

Merrymouse · 16/02/2025 11:02

This is also one of the cruelties that can be inflicted on trans widows and their children - the pressure to pretend, by extension, that their old life didn't exist.

It is also very tough on siblings being expected to pretend that the brother or sister that they grew up with was a sister or brother, when they know quite well that that is not true. Ripping away their lifetime experience to feed a fantasy.

Waitwhat23 · 16/02/2025 11:29

@Boiledbeetle despite your protests after the last one, it looks like a third volume is inevitable! Evil laughter as I drink my coffee.

(Wonders what it is about all this that provokes us all to rhyme).

RedToothBrush · 16/02/2025 11:31

FannyCann · 16/02/2025 11:25

Another thing that has just occurred to me - Sandie basically hasn't worked since January 23 - she's on paid suspension isn't she? I think she rejected offers to come back on days under supervision etc, so she hasn't worked (as a nurse) since then?

This case is dragging on, now to July and it will be months after that that the ruling finally comes out. So she likely will not have worked for two years by the end of it. No idea what her plans might be by then - I personally wouldn't want to work with ED ever again, but she could choose a different area or apply to another hospital if they would have her after this. (Even if she wins, she may well be tainted from an employment point of view).

She may have had to revalidate in the last year or it could be coming up this year or next. You have to have done 450 hours work in the revalidation 3 year period, as well as various other requirements including CPD and being signed off by a manager or peer.

It will be very difficult I would think for her to revalidate while this is going on, with probably all her work colleagues and managers being advised not to communicate with her (even if they do side with her secretly). If she is off work more than two years with re validation around the corner she will need to get those hours in without delay plus all the CPD and face to face training that is meant to be done. She also should have been doing the hospital required learning eg annual resuscitation training etc

In short she is at risk of losing her registration through no fault of her own, due to the length of her suspension.

It's really hard to get back on the register once you are off (eg if you don't submit revalidation in time as opposed to to being struck off) and she could have to do a Back to Nursing course to get back!

I'm sure she will be aware and weighing up her options, but it's just an added layer of complications for her.

Surely that would be a point in the financial settlement should she win...

FannyCann · 16/02/2025 11:32

Re siblings I saw something on X about a family argument. There is an heirloom ring that always goes to the eldest girl and the teenage daughter expects it and was borrowing it to wear to her prom. Enter older brother who now identifies as big sister...

Apparently younger sister ended up saying transphobic things and family meltdown ensued.
I think we all know where our sympathies would lie in such a case. 🙄

Sortumn · 16/02/2025 11:32

teawamutu · 16/02/2025 08:45

I'd love to hear more about your relative's story, @TheCourseOfTheRiverChanged - she sounds extraordinary.

And this was so brilliantly put - "Davidson doesn’t believe that trans women are women. She operates from the basis of, “How would I proceed here if I did believe that trans women are women?” And my honest experience is that this is true of every TWAW-er I have ever come across, from be-kinders through to full blown and very effective trans rights activists."

It's such a true and important distinction. Rational thought can be challenged and conclusions changed; the simple impulse to be kind can redirect when the consequences emerge. Playing a role to stay in the herd seems to be hard-wired.

This makes me think about the time a friend had rather surprisingly booked a triple room with a male aquaintance (G) who wanted to be a woman.
I'd never been TWAW, I'd never even heard the term and I understood that everyone was making a polite pretence but I did polish my halo every time I joined in that polite pretence.

Being thrown into that situation did focus the mind really quickly. The instinctive part of me that felt deeply uncomfortable with the arrangement was frantically trying to work out how the double and single bed ought to be shared to my minimal discomfort and to G's comfort.

Thinking about a situation and being faced with it are two different things and for someone encountering a male in a changing room alone for the first ever time, having given it very little thought and even less so, not pictured or felt into it honestly. (For me this might have been around 2016).
I imagine it going it a bit like this, depending on how strong someone's fight/flight or frieze response might be.
'Oh shit! Oh but he wants to be a women, how difficult for him' followed by deep breaths as they override their very instinctual feeling that something is wrong, combined with telling themselves how accepting and lovely they are.

For me, the cognitive dissonance after would be huge. A feeling of didn't I do well there doing the kind thing, combined with why do I feel I've betrayed myself and accepted an uncomfortable and potentially dangerous situation?, combined with why did I feel so uncomfortable with the situation given I'm such a accepting person, am I really as accepting as I think?
<brain explodes>

CheekySnake · 16/02/2025 11:32

Isn't DU in effect arguing that if he sits in a wheelchair we all have to treat him as if he can't walk at all, even though we've all seen him walking?

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