NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #19

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It seems that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July but it wasn't completely clear whether it might end a day or two later.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18

This is a big diversion into a whole other byway, but if anyone fancies it, well worth a read. In 2021 there was a whole thread on here about questions of primogeniture around a Scottish baronet, Ewan Forbes, in the 1950s. A new book had been written about it and some (most?) of the claims made were pretty jaw-dropping ('bonkers' was the term used in the thread title, and boy, it wasn’t wrong).

Guess what: our old friend Prof Whittle makes a guest appearance too.

Whittle is a transman who had a lot of input to Press for Change.

And, yes, a professor.

Of course I also believe only a very small percentage of trans women have gen. dysphoria and that's a whole different issue in itself.

Before social contagion hit, the prevalence of gender dysphoria (in a properly-assessed clinical sense) was estimated as:

According to the DSM-5, among individuals who are assigned male at birth, approximately 0.005 percent to 0.014 percent are later diagnosed with gender dysphoria. Among individuals who are assigned female at birth, approximately 0.002 percent to 0.003 percent are later diagnosed with gender dysphoria. Because these estimates are based on the number of people who seek formal treatment—including hormone therapy and gender confirmation surgery—these rates are likely an underestimate.

The rate of trans-identiying people these days is often stated to be around 0.5%. If the earlier estimated prevalence of gender dysphoria were to be correct that would mean that around 1% of trans-identifying people have gender dysphoria and 99% don't.

Isla Bumba is only a witness, not a respondent, giving evidence on behalf of the NHS. The NHS as her employer is responsible for the advice she gave and the actions she took / told others to take. They can't make her a scapegoat without admitting they were at fault themselves.

Fascinating conversations going on here. The deadnaming outrage is particularly interesting in this case because DU is a doctor and everytime he gets a new job, his qualifications should be checked, because people do sometimes falsely identify as doctors, the charlatans. The powers that be surely can’t have given him a medical degree in his new name. So, it’s a serious issue for him, how will he cope with disclosure at regular intervals? Obviously, he will have lots of handmaidens around to help him get into those big girl pants, but even so.
I’m quite uncomfortable with the identifying as black comparator. I do see the black and white minstrels as directly analogous to drag queens, but unlike sex, race is a spectrum. Our origins may be clearly laid out in our DNA, but much less obvious in our appearance. Additionally people may be raised in a cultural context quite unlike their biological cohort. My father was mixed race, perceived as black and thus suffered a lot of racism in England in the middle of the 20thC. My mother was Irish and also experienced horrendous prejudice. People assume from my appearance that I as a white person have no understanding of those issues, but I do. Similarly children growing up in diverse poor areas in the U.K. are often properly exposed to a whole range of cultural bios and contexts, and synthesise them, so white teenagers from Tottenham sound and behave like black teenagers. It’s not appropriation, it’s just normal. I have a friend who married a man from the Middle East and has lived there with him for 40 years. The only difference between her and her friends there is that she is slightly paler. She’s Egyptian now. Which is not to say that there is only 1 way to be an Egyptian woman, or a teenager from Tottenham.

That’s what I hoped for, from the separation of sex and gender, that girls can drive lorries, boys can cry, that everyone would be less constricted by societal expectations. Of course, that isnt what has happened. It’s so distressing to me that a trans woman like India Willoughby can put up photos of SP and DU and see nothing wrong in judging DU as better at womaning.. But it does all seem horribly superficial. What else could it be?

It reminds me of an entry on the Talk pages of Bruce Jenner's entry in Wikipedia.

There was a massive argument between those editors who thought he shouldn't be deadnamed and that no mention of his gender reassignment should be made, and those editors who pointed out that if his reassignment was not referred to, then the reference to his winning the Olympic decathlon in 1976 would be rendered meaningless and confusing as no such event exists for female athletes.

Trying to ban deadnaming is just an attempt to change history and to deny reality - something that should always be condemned

I'm aware of "these rates are likely an underestimate" in my post. However, I've long thought that the vast majority of trans-identifying people don't have gender dysphoria in its classical sense. They might feel something they refer to as "gender dysphoria" but it isn't clear what this new version of the phenomenon is.

To put it another way, "gender dysphoria" has turned into an umbrella term covering a wide variety of very different things. "Trans" underwent asimilar broadening.

@Merrymouse @KnottyAuty
Judges have been told to stop using wrong sex pronouns in cases where sex is relevant. The press reported that last week eg the Telegraph:
https://archive.ph/iy9ig
It follows years of requests from groups representing victims of men who say they are women eg:childrenoftransitioners.org/2021/12/28/the-judges-bench-book/

Someone has got to try that in court surely? That’s blatant sex discrimination that shouldn’t be protected. Even the Royal Family (whatever your views on that keep it for another thread 🤣) re-wrote their rules on that subject. Unbelievable that’s in the GRC!

I've been seeing a lot of references to "gender incongruence".
For diagnostic purposes, I gather a high degree of mental distress (including suicidal ideation) was one of the criteria to deem the condition to be gender dysphoria. "Gender incongruence" seems like more of a catch-all, to include the gender-questioning who don't feel bad enough to hurt themselves.

Which leads to the question everyone always asks: Incongruence with what? And what is the nature of the incongruence?

I've finally finished reading all 20 threads. It's taken me a week! My brain now needs a holiday-somewhere quiet and with no internet.
I wanted to reply to a few pp re Datix and doctors powers to section under the MHA but I was so far behind they would have been out of place
I have little to add that hasn't already been said by PP. I'm struggling to believe that Upton actually believes the nonsense he came out with. I'm more inclined to think he's manipulative and playing games. Either way, I think he should be struck off and most definitely nowhere near women who require intimate procedures.

If he has chosen to go into psychiatry, I can only speculate on motivation but I can't say I'm surprised. In my former life as a RMN I came across many staff members who held dangerous attitudes and beliefs that should not have been anywhere near patients
Complaints of abuse were often dismissed as being made-up, that the pts were delusional, psychotic, manipulative troublemakers etc. I reported several but because they weren't registered nurses, and not on the NMC register, they simply moved on to other hospitals.
I finally left the profession but my final contract was working on CAMHS inpatient wards. I was alarmed to see so many traumatised mentally ill adolescents identifying as trans or non-binary. The walls were covered in trans posters, and staff many of which were blue haired non-binary types, actively encouraged the kids to transition.
It wouldn't suprise me to see Upton in such an environment. Unlimited, unchaperoned access to confused traumatised kids, other staff members sharing similarly batshit ideas about biology and gender identity. He'd fit right in.
I thought working in CAMHS had peaked me but since discovering FWR a few weeks ago, I've realised I was only part way up the hill.
I'm hoping that common sense prevails and the ET will rule in favour of Sandie. If they don't then what will the next steps be in fighting this insanity?

Quite!

I've you've not done so already, please write to your MP to air your concerns. I think your experiences are invaluable and should be heard.

Boswelltoday has consulted and posted a response to Whittle's assertions.

I've been reliably informed by a clearly superior legal mind, who took the time to fact-check your overnight tweet, that you're wrong on nearly every point.

This is a civil claim for discrimination, but the EqA 2010 allows both employers & individuals to be named as co-respondents if they had a material role in the alleged discrimination. Dr Upton is not "on trial," but that was never the test for inclusion.

S.110 EqA 2010 makes individuals personally liable if they enact or assist discrimination. If Dr Upton’s actions contributed to Peggie’s treatment, it was legally valid to name Upton. This was a tribunal decision, not a political one.

NHS Fife had a right to operate single-sex spaces under Schedule 3, Para 28 of the EqA. The legal question is whether Peggie was treated unfairly based on sex or belief—not whether NHS Fife followed its own policy.

A sex discrimination claim could succeed if Peggie was treated worse than a man in the same situation. A belief discrimination claim depends on whether NHS Fife (or Upton) unfairly dismissed or penalised Peggie’s gender-critical views.

Forstater v CGD Europe (2021) confirmed that gender-critical beliefs are legally protected. If Peggie faced detriment because of those beliefs, the claim is valid regardless of NHS Fife’s intentions.

The claim does not dispute Upton’s identity, only whether Upton’s placement impacted Peggie unlawfully. The focus is on how Peggie was treated, not Upton’s self-identification.

If Dr Upton was just following orders, it doesn’t erase liability—S.110 EqA 2010 applies even if an individual enforces a policy. See Weathersfield Ltd v Sargent (1999).

Whether calling Dr Upton to give evidence was “gratuitous” is irrelevant; tribunals assess facts, not feelings. The issue is Peggie’s rights, not Upton’s reputation.

If Peggie was treated unfairly, that is a legal issue, not an attack on trans people. Holding one person accountable ≠ denying rights to another.

https://x.com/boswelltoday/status/1891092245929152831

And to further engage the nursing points....

I have felt really queasy since the tribunal discussion re consent and the open admission, nay assertion, from DU that he would override women's requests for same sex care. Quite apart from being so firmly sure he is right and anyone with concerns is wrong, I have been ordering where there leaves other staff caught in this horrific set of circumstances.

If I as the nurse caring for a patient, a woman with vaginal bleeding who has asked at the point of booking in to only have women looking after her as per NC's example, become aware that DU or another like him, is planning to examine this patient, I have the following options:

A) I step in and ensure that this doctor does not approach this patient. I ask a female doctor to take the case, or I ask DU to leave it for someone else.

B) I look away and pretend I haven't seen what's going on, pretend I didn't understand the patient's original clearly stated request, or pretend that I don't understand that DU is not the female caregiver they requested.

C) I accompany DU to the patients bedside and assist them in examining the patient, all the while colluding with DU and gaslighting the patient

Now, following the discussions, conversations and discourse surrounding this these last few weeks has left me feeling utterly wretched about the whole thing. Becoming aware that the NHS as a whole, individual trusts, professional bodies and many individuals do not see that A) is the ONLY way for a nurse to behave in that situations sickens me.

If put in this situation now I of course would take option A, but would I be prevented from saying the word "man", would I be accused of harassment of a colleague, would I be seen to be denying their firmly held belief? Would the NMC see this as vexatious outing rather than advocating for a patient?

It seems to me that all the people from Fife insisting no one but SP saw DU as anything other than a woman would potentially be choosing options b and or c and that is just unthinkable.

Anyone creating the potential for these situations to arise can only have been working on the hope that they just won't. Because it seems to me they've absolutely stitched the rest of us up.

Totally take your point on race being a poor comparator. I was thinking specifically of the Rachel Dolezal case in the US, which outraged many over there.

And also, yes, very much agree: race is a spectrum, and sex is not. But the same people who get very angry about perceived cultural appropriation are also often the ones who are happy to say that what is going on here isn’t sex appropriation. That’s what I don’t get. Or rather I do get it - I think they don’t.

My local MP is beyond useless. MCC are also totally captured. I do intend to start emailing organisations though.
I'm not the best at composing letters but I'm hoping to find some templates on here that I can tweak/re-word.

Age is also a spectrum but we have clearly defined categories for many reasonable purposes. If I identify as under 10 can I enter a race for primary aged children? If I am 13 but identify as over 21 can I vote?

Thank you for delurking. As a mum of a child who was actively gender questioning and at a mental health crisis point in 2022-23 (violence at home from her towards us, particularly me etc), this part struck a real chord with me (italics are mine).

I peaked some time ago, courtesy of an ROGD child (who, fingers, toes, eyes, tits and everything else crossed, is now safely out the other side, though I do live in eternal fear). I researched and researched and came across Hannah Barnes and Helen Joyce, and somewhere along the way I read (heard?) an interview with someone (I feel like it was Graham Linehan) who was asked why the UK was so terfy, and he said “Mumsnet”. And it’s true - you are the loveliest, viperiest, rights hoarding dinosaurs anywhere on the interwebs.

I don't feel safely out of the other side yet as my daughter is still only 15 and is subject to constant influence both in school and the wider IRL and online world. However, I'm not sure this fear will fully go away for years until and unless this scandal is fully exposed.

💐💐💐💐 to you and your child.

And 👏👏👏👏🙏🙏🙏🙏 to the vipery (loving that word 😁) MN rights-hoarding dinosaurs.

And thank you too to Dr Upton for showing the world, via a courtroom, what a full immersion into gender identity belief sounds like. I don't know whether you really believe it or are just flying in from Málaga to say that you do. Thank you regardless.

Edited to clarify that the violence was from my distressed daughter. I had never experienced violence in the home until this point in my life. I can only imagine how awful and scary it must be in other situations e.g. if you're the child or partner of the violent person. But speaking as the mum and seeing the sibling impact amongst other things, it was an incredibly difficult time. She didn't want to be doing it but this was the depth of her crisis. She was being bullied every day at school in relation to her autism and at the same time as feeling distressed about her changing body and the sensory aspects of breast development and periods.

NotMaroon - can't find it now, but there are prison staff who have faced the same dilemma. Even when approached by women who were asking why they were being asked to share with a (no-surgical intervention) man (observation confirmed in communal showers), they had to deny that it was man, irrespective of what that did to the MH of the women prisoners.

accompany DU to the patients bedside and assist them in examining the patient, all the while colluding with DU and gaslighting the patient

Yes.

I don't understand why TWAW isn't treated as an illegitimate form of appropriation.

(For clarity, I don't have a problem with "cultural appropriation" in itself, but as TWAW advocates also seem to think cultural appropriation is wrong I don't see why it shouldn't be weaponised against them)

A whole group of my colleagues all revalidated together (with me) when it was brought in so I rather assumed old timers would be on the same three year cycle, though related to whichever month they originally registered but I may be quite wrong in that. Can't say I thought about it before.

As she's working it shouldn't be a problem for her anyway. I was just thinking if she hadn't been working as I thought she was still on paid suspension and extended leave combined with an unhelpful trust might have made for difficulties even though, as you say, there's a lot of different ways to meet the requirements if not involved in direct patient care. Glad it's not an issue after all.

This is a made-up story. Any similarity to persons or situations in real life is purely coincidental!

Inspired by A visit from St Nicholas written by Clement Clarke Moore

A VISIT FROM DR DICK

‘Twas the night before Christmas, when all through the ward
Not a patient was stirring, not even the bored.
The stockings were worn by the man I'll call Bess
In hopes they'd go well with his after work dress.

The patients were settled all drugged in their beds
While visions of presents danced in their heads.
And Sandie was bleeding, right through her clothes
Had just had a flooding, which every lass loathes.

When in to the changing room Sandie did go
I heard she was met by a man who'd never heard no.
Away back through the door was not even a choice
Tore off her upset, and her discomfort did voice.

The man stood his ground and didn't back down
Gave poor Sandie a fright, the six foot tall clown.
When she told him his presence was not the done thing
“But I’m a woman, a lady, I'm a queen not a king.”

With his reasons so creepy and frankly quite odd
I know in my gut that he’s an AGP bod.
More crap from his mouth about how he'd the right
And he whinged and he whined late into the night.

“Now Sandie. Now Sandie. I'm a woman I am
On this I do swear I'm all woman, not man.
To the top of my head, to the tip of my willy
Now take off your clothes, and stop being silly.

As sure as the sun shines in the night sky
When up is now down. Now why would I lie?”
So up with his arms, as he took off his top
With a smile on his face, when his scrub bottoms drop.

And when he was finished Sandie tried to explain
The reasons beyond him, alas ‘twas in vain.
As he walked out the door she shook like a leaf
Down she sank to the ground in instant relief.

He was dressed in his scrubs when she'd gone to get changed
And was wearing his street clothes as words were exchanged.
A man that had been in no danger at all
And could have left at the start now started to bawl.

His eyes they were wet, his demeanour sooo sad
His mission right now, to paint Sandie as bad.
His self-righteous thinking, all the havoc he'd wreak
And that bloody witch, she’d wish she'd never dare speak.

The froth and the bile that would spill from his gob
And his aim in this all - to lose Sandie her job.
He had a phone full of contemporaneous notes
That helped him keep track of his lying and gloats.

He made up his notes about mean terfy Sandie
And saved them for when they might come in handy.
A twist of the knife and a tilt of his head
Soon all would bow down once gossip had spread.

He would show them who's boss, who's cock of the walk
And he’d close down the women, they’d now not dare talk.
And after he'd spoken to a female boss
And spewed out a load of his made up old dross

He was walked to his car to ensure he was 'safe'
And sent on his way, the poor little waif!
But I heard Sandie exclaim as he drove out of sight
"Happy Tribunal you arsehole, and to being proved right."

He's arguing that because he has now sat in the wheelchair, its rightful occupant can't have it any more.

His justification for taking her wheelchair is that it's sometimes hard to tell how well someone can walk, and that disabled people suffer prejudice.

If she argues about it, it's clearly because she is prejudiced against invisible disabilities, not that she's sick of him grabbing her wheelchair.

Can he even hear himself?