NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #19

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It seems that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July but it wasn't completely clear whether it might end a day or two later.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18

Interpretation and translation seems to have been a significant part of NHS Fifes DEI officers job. She completed an equality impact assessment for that aspect which is publicly available on NHS Fife’s website at https://www.nhsfife.org/media/u32wjs66/interpreting-and-translation-policy.pdf (also archived at https://archive.ph/43kZF just in case it disappears)

It is notable that nowhere in the race/religion/sex sections does it say that a same sex interpreter would be made available if requested in cases where there may be some sensitivity disclosing/discussing health aspects with the opposite sex.

I was taken aback by how amateur the completion of the form was.

I am another one mostly lurking from across the pond and want to say a huge thank you to Sandie specifically and Terf Island in general for holding the line against this insidious ideology. I'm way past the first peak and believe we have ceded too much. A couple of questions about the NHS:

How far up the hospital management structure do you have to go to find someone responsible for both nurse Sandy and DU?

Is there any employee performance based pay in the NHS for meeting certain targets? Are there financial incentives for hospitals as organizations to meet DEI targets?

Can anyone direct me to that great cartoon of the changing room with a bearded man and why wont us undress in front of me? Not via nitter as my virus checker blocks it.

For both doctors and nurses I think (?) you'd need to go to https://www.nhsfife.org/about-us/nhs-fife-board/team-members/chief-executive/carol-potter/

Placemarking as I’m catching up, these threads are so fast!

Who is SP’s backer (s)?

Whoever they are hopefully they’re prepared to take it all the way to the SC if SP is up for the fight.

I don't think that kind of performance related pay exists in the NHS.

@SameyMcNameChange

Thank you so much for your comments, really helpful.

One question for everyone:
"For example. It is an agreed fact that SP was suspended. It is a contested fact whether the 'resus patient' incident happened."

In relation to the 'resus patient' incident, it seems clear to say that Sandie Peggie is contesting that it happened at all.

What I'm not clear from the respondents' side is whether they are contesting between them what the 'resus patient' incident was. I can't say I'm particularly clear from the information so far on whether it was that Sandie abandoned the resus patient or simply asked Upton to do the obs.

Would that be made more clear in the written information provided, i.e. will there at some point be clarity on who thought what this incident was at what time?

Can I just say, SP has been clear, she didn't just stay at Trump hotel. She is a Trump supporter. Can I also say, that feminism is for all women, even the ones we may find a bit cunty. Feminism is not for men who LARP as women. I stand with SP, even if she thinks the sun shines out of trump's arse

This is exactly the same as the black woman who objected to the perverted trans identified pervert man in WiSpa. She was a trump supporting fundamental Christian and this was used as ammunition to discredit her. She was also not wrong.

I may not enjoy going out for a few pints with either of them. But I will go to the wall for them.

Quick delurk to say thank you all. I've followed every thread with increasing incredulity. Special thank you to all the Sandie's out there doing their jobs in the face of all this batshittery and malice.

Among all the shocking things I've read this week (thank you all of you who filled more than 18 threads) this one:

The hospital and BU were so determined to damage SP that they exposed the fact that

EITHER

they (as an institution) let a child with potentially life threatening anaphylaxis leave the hospital without a record of their treatment that could be passed on to their GP and retained on their NHS record in case of a further emergency

OR

thought that inventing an event where they (as an institution) let a child with potentially life threatening anaphylaxis leave the hospital without a record of their treatment that could be passed on to their GP and retained on their NHS record in case of a further emergency

was justified. Could that first option have happened? Did no-one (including BU, a doctor, surely a person who would have had legal responsibility if this led to harm to the child) realise what an appalling situation that was.

We moan and grumble about our regional hospital (in mid-west Ireland) but it does record patients' health issues and the treatments they are given.

We don’t know who the backers are.
Julie Bindel revealed on Andrew Golds podcast yesterday that it was JK Rowling who funded her defamation case against prick news, which she won.

Looks like the word gender is written on her white board photo as well, although it’s obscured by the word “human” so can’t be 100% sure but it’s not the word sex.

A minor subset of gender, maybe??

The majority group in their workforce?

Oh ohh I know this one. Is it 🐕 whistles?

So today we learnt that...

The suspension was carried out AGAINST HR's advice. I can't get my head round this

Due process was ignored at pretty much every step. We vipers are used to ideologues bending the rules to bully gender critical women but Fife is a whole other level.

The investigation that JR says wasn't an investigation was definitely an investigation yesterday. Today it's a non-investigation again. It appears that ED has somehow been made aware of what Fife's current story is and what she should say to support that fiction. My understanding was that witnesses can't be coached like this. Are there to be no consequences?

It seems that there are still documents missing. So NHS and DU keep on ignoring the judge's order. Again why are there no consequences?

ED doctored a document

It's looking more and more like the patient safety allegations were entirely made up. Certainly that's what those HR emails were hinting at. KS is definitely at the centre of this

ED has come across as a POS.
ED - a junior staff, who thought that SP was nitpicking and finding errors, she felt she was pushed to it and called her something not very nice, I had to speak with the junior staff
So it's Sandie's fault someone swore at her? She made them do it, did she? It's the same as "I wouldn't put myself in that situation". Nice victim blaming.

I can't wait to hear what story the fragrant doctor comes up with re the phone.

Roll on July! Fife are so cooked and they deserve it.

Do we think the HR person who described it as ludicrous is the same one that's been off sick?

I also wonder in all of this why the Isla Bryson comparison is so bad. Not in the rapist sense obviously but why this transwoman isn't a transwoman according to the TRAs. Why not?

At the point of 'her' conviction Bryson had been presenting as a woman longer than Upton had when starting in the department. Under NHS Fife rules Bryson would be allowed to use female single sex spaces surely?

Given that the only rule seems to be the person's belief they are a woman and that this overrides anyone else's views and has them labelled a bigot (something he also enforced at the college so even if she was referring to him, there is a comparison beyond rapist status as the students there were ignored).

Sorry if this has already been asked but could ED and other witnesses called have refused to attend the tribunal? I'm still shocked that this is standard in an employment tribunal. I naively assumed that on a claim being brought against an institution it would have lawyers and very senior representatives in attendance.

I agree and she won't be the only woman in the UK who has voiced support for Trump / Farage / Brexit / Reform for a whole variety of reasons (the main one I hear when I'm canvassing for Labour is that the liberal/left have abandoned ordinary people and their concerns). Most of the people I talk to are decent, hardworking, law-abiding citizens but they're angry with mainstream politicians so they listen to other voices. I suspect many of the millions who recently voted for Trump are similar.

I don't like Sandie's political views but I do like that she can be 'stern', opinionated and courageous. Even if there were nothing whatsoever to like about her, she'd still have my support in standing up for her rights as a woman to a single-sex changing room at work.

I thought the child that left was a different one? The snickers bar kid was raised I think because DU said he couldn't recall when a particular incident happened, whereas she said it was the same shift as snickers kid, which pinpointed the date as Halloween.

This is the thing, if SP was 'nitpicking and finding errors' that suggests she was punctilious about following protocols - which I'd have expected to include note-keeping. Not a person who would neglect to record an anaphylactic response in a patient. Because with 30 years experience, she'd know that would endanger them, and not just in the moment.

@toomanytrees How far up the hospital management structure do you have to go to find someone responsible for both nurse Sandy and DU?

In terms of full line management and discipline etc, probably board level, in fact the CEO/General Manager of the organisation.

From today's BBC report on the case

The hearing, which had originally been expected to have already concluded, has now been adjourned until July.
This is due to questioning of witnesses taking longer than anticipated, and the judge and lawyers' availability.

No mention of the delay being caused by multiple non-disclosures by the respondents.