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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #19

1000 replies

nauticant · 14/02/2025 18:06

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It seems that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July but it wasn't completely clear whether it might end a day or two later.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18

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RethinkingLife · 16/02/2025 12:27

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 16/02/2025 12:21

Well indeed. It is similar to “not all men.” I know that there seem to be different routes and motivations for IDing as the opposite sex, but there’s nothing to say that someone might not have multiple motivations, and additionally, as no one wears big signs declaring their motivation, from a purely risk assessment point of view we have to make the assumption that they all potentially fly out of Malaga. Unfair as that might be on those who don’t.

aka #NotAllSnakes

TV Idea: #NotAllSnakes Everyone who says "Not All Men" are introduced to a variety of snakes. Not all of them are venomous. They're invited to go into a pit with them.

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 16/02/2025 12:28

borntobequiet · 16/02/2025 09:57

I’m quite willing to (hypothetically) believe that there’s some “biological” or developmental cause for a certain type of gender dysphoria, that seen in very young boys and is persistent through later life. This seems to be the condition that originally interested doctors, and follows a well defined pattern.
Whether affirmation, hormonal treatments and surgery is an appropriate treatment for this is another matter. And whether it follows that men can become women, males become females, and that this should be enshrined in law, is a monstrous overreach, significantly detrimental to females in general and undermining of scientific fact and common sense.

I think someone thread may have mentioned this already, but in research on cohorts of gender confused children pre the affirmation-only approach, something like 80% of young children (at the time these were mostly boys) who identified as the opposite sex grew up to be gay, as long as you left them alone to just get on with things. (I think the numbers were like: 90% grew out of it, and of that 90%, 90% were gay - someone else will have to do the maths to get the right overall percentage of proto-gay boys in the cohort.)

This is why the whistleblowers from the Tavistock joked, darkly, that they were transing away all the gay kids.

Needspaceforlego · 16/02/2025 12:29

Bunpea · 16/02/2025 10:32

Agree.
but the GMC are abdicating their responsibility in not providing the information about a doctor’s sex. Some patients (probably mainly women) need to know for some interactions they have with the medical profession - in the same way they need to know the doctor is medically qualified.

if the GMC don’t make this information available it, who will? I can’t think of any other sensible place for it to be recorded.

Nobody, but there is no point in them labeling people M/F if its not true.

Similar to the Olympic Boxers no point in passports saying M/F if they aren't true.

Official documents need to be factually correct. Or they become a piece of meaningless fiction.

RedToothBrush · 16/02/2025 12:30

teawamutu · 16/02/2025 12:19

For some, "if you don't respect me, I won't respect you" means "if you don't treat me like an authority, I won't treat you like a person"

This right here is yet another example of the insights on MN being far superior to anything in the MSM.

Yes I agree.

'I am worthy of respect' seems to actually mean 'respect my authority' rather than a desire for mutual respect and respect based on equality. It's a one way expectation to be demanded rather than a request for a level playing field.

GetDressedYouMerryGentlemen · 16/02/2025 12:32

Proudtobeanortherner · 16/02/2025 11:34

Am I being paranoid when I see that the Darlington nurses case is also not coming back to court until June/July?
What all around the same time?

I can see both judges playing a waiting game with their decision praying that the other one finds first so they can take a lead from them. We may never get a judgement from either!

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 16/02/2025 12:33

PrettyDamnCosmic · 16/02/2025 10:43

That was the old theory for the cause of male homosexuality & was nonsense then too.

And was why they tried to “cure”
homosexuality by giving people cross-sex hormones. Plus ça change…

AlisonDonut · 16/02/2025 12:35

The other problem that we have with any 'research' on this is that the researchers are so ideologically captured that the ability to report 'null' or 'negative' effects puts them in danger of being labelled 'transphobic' so nobody can properly research anything any more. So it becomes a case of 'do oranges affect the sleep patterns of trans people' and the answer will always be 'of course, everything affects trans people' and we still have zero idea of who they mean by 'trans people', 'oranges' or what effects were ever measured or how it was calibrated or what study was done or what the comparitors are etc etc etc.

It really has corrupted everything it touches.

Chersfrozenface · 16/02/2025 12:37

RethinkingLife · 16/02/2025 12:27

aka #NotAllSnakes

TV Idea: #NotAllSnakes Everyone who says "Not All Men" are introduced to a variety of snakes. Not all of them are venomous. They're invited to go into a pit with them.

Thing is, it is possible to learn about the appearance and behaviour of all species of snake and to therefore know which ones are dangerous

Not easy, given that there are over 3,000 species, but possible.

It is not possible to know which humans are dangerous - they are all one species and the dangerous ones don't have physical identifying features.

You can make rough guesses - men are statistically and physically more dangerous than women, some individuals display behaviours that suggest they are dangerous - but you can't know to the degree that is possible by identifying venomous and constructor snake species.

NecessaryScene · 16/02/2025 12:37

Official documents need to be factually correct. Or they become a piece of meaningless fiction.

Which loops back to the earlier question today:

What is the legitimate aim of single gender identity provision?

In both cases the only aim being 100% achieved for both is props for the immersive role players. And they're unfit for their original purpose, and for anyone else.

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 16/02/2025 12:42

fanOfBen · 16/02/2025 11:14

Thinking about this a bit more, I think my concern, that is in the intersection of concerns about (some applications of) the social model of disability and concerns about gender ideology, is to do with the use of labels to deny reality and compel certain behaviour from others.

I'm not so much thinking about physical disability - it's more obvious when we look at students, say, who have "reasonable adjustments" because they have disability labels like ADHD, dyslexia and/or autism. Some, not all, of those students seem to take the view that, given the label, other people have a duty to bend reality into what it would be if they had ideal abilities in the areas where actually they have deficits. So it's not enough that they get extensions, permission to use proof-readers, whatever; it is an affront, and must be someone else's fault, if they ever do less well than a peer and can see that as being caused by the disability. (E.g., you gave me an extension on piece of work X but that meant I had less time to work on the next piece, Y - you failed to issue me with my time-turner, in effect.) The key thing is that it's the label that enables the attitude. If the student didn't have a disability severe enough to get the label, but was just a bit crap at spelling/organising themselves/communicating, whatever, they and everyone else would take it as perfectly natural that they didn't do quite as well as a peer who was better at those things. So there are two satisfactory states: skills which are good enough to do well, and skills which are bad enough to get a label, and in between, there is a middle ground which is less desirable than either. I emphasise that I'm not saying every student with a disability label views it this way, but I've met plenty for whom this seems explanatory.

Rather similar, it seems to me, is the adoption of trans as a label. It's saying, I'm not just a bit uncomfortable with my body, like other girls - it's not just that I hate my breasts or wish I didn't have periods or hate my broken voice or my thick penis - it's that I am trans, and it's your job to make me feel fine and turn the world into a world where I am comfortable. Again, we have two satisfactory states: the (largely imaginary) one where someone has a gender identity that accords with their sex assigned at birth, and feels comfortable in their skin, and the one where someone is uncomfortable enough to deserve the "trans" label. In between, there's a middle ground that is less desirable than either - not being trans, not special, but just not very comfortable in your skin or with your place in society.

In both cases, it's great to accept the wide variety of humans and use looking at that properly to try to adjust the world to better suit more people, where we can - but using labels to deny reality is really a hiding to nothing, especially where there is no Platonic reality to whether someone "deserves" the label.

This is incredibly insightful. I have been struggling with the idea of what counts as an acceptable accommodation for scholastic difficulties, and likening it to the trans issue has really clarified things. Who gets the “extra help”? Who deserves the special treatment? What about all those people in the middle who just muddle on with their average grades and their wishy-washy love-hate relationship with their own sexed bodies?

Much to ponder.

SinnerBoy · 16/02/2025 12:45

RethinkingLife · Today 12:02

Thanks, Whittle is desperate, isn't they? I posted some information on they's thread to put they right.

ThatsNotMyTeen · 16/02/2025 12:47

Is Whittle really a law professor?! 😱

ThatsNotMyTeen · 16/02/2025 12:50

Lots of handmaidens on byvickysmith’s post on Instagram 🙁

I think there’s still a reluctance from people to post their GC views more openly in spaces where people may know/identify them than on likes of here. I certainly feel that way - I wish I didn’t but like a lot of people I can’t risk a malicious complaint to my work

GetDressedYouMerryGentlemen · 16/02/2025 12:53

I have been angry for different reasons over the course of this case (and indeed my whole terfy journey). Today I am steaming with the NHS as an organisation.
I could kind of understand how a small company with a few dozen employees and limited space faced with a sudden declaration of trans-ness from an employee could flail around, look externally for guidance end up reading stonelaw and make the wrong call.
But this is the NHS one of the largest (if not the largest) employer in the country. They have HR and legal and diversity teams in house. They have resources and space that would enable them to think well there is a conflict here so we can have single sex and single gender/ gender neutral CR and a policy that says single sex spaces are just that and they are a legal requirement under employment law so if you have a GI other than that of your sex you can use the gender CR where you will of course be joined by all the women who think you are brave and stunning and will offer you tampons and pillows fights in nought but their 'big girl pants' and bras.
Now we can crack on with the actual business at hand of treating sick people.

Bunpea · 16/02/2025 12:54

Needspaceforlego · 16/02/2025 12:29

Nobody, but there is no point in them labeling people M/F if its not true.

Similar to the Olympic Boxers no point in passports saying M/F if they aren't true.

Official documents need to be factually correct. Or they become a piece of meaningless fiction.

Agree. That’s why they should drop the gender indicator, revert to a sex indicator, and if necessary declare it following a cheek swab. It’s a once in a lifetime requirement, so neither onerous nor costly to implement.

NoWordForFluffy · 16/02/2025 12:55

ThatsNotMyTeen · 16/02/2025 12:47

Is Whittle really a law professor?! 😱

Apparently so. Bit concerning!

SqueakyDinosaur · 16/02/2025 12:57

Bruno Quintavalle is the barrister for the Darlington nurses, for the poster who asked upthread.

FayeRC · 16/02/2025 12:58

@HornyHornersPinkyWinky The 70k is the total estimated costs of a full court process. I need to reach just another ~£200 (so 15,770) before Monday to fully cover the journey to this point. I only campaign for what I need in each step.

So far, the crowdfunder has covered the legal fees for the first preliminary hearing, responses to further information as requested by the Respondent, medical records, disability impact statement, more further info provided on disability status, and now the second preliminary hearing next week.

So we're not far off, and I think we'll get there today.

guinnessguzzler · 16/02/2025 12:59

@GetDressedYouMerryGentlemen The largest employer in the UK and in the top ten largest employers in the world! To Truss it up; 'That is a disgrace'.

youkiddingme · 16/02/2025 12:59

Chersfrozenface · 16/02/2025 12:37

Thing is, it is possible to learn about the appearance and behaviour of all species of snake and to therefore know which ones are dangerous

Not easy, given that there are over 3,000 species, but possible.

It is not possible to know which humans are dangerous - they are all one species and the dangerous ones don't have physical identifying features.

You can make rough guesses - men are statistically and physically more dangerous than women, some individuals display behaviours that suggest they are dangerous - but you can't know to the degree that is possible by identifying venomous and constructor snake species.

Even with snakes, I think you'd have to be in uncomfortably, and possibly dangerous, proximity to make that call if you came across one in your proximity. And hope your natural fear response doesn't hijack your ability to cognitively process that information and deal with the threat before you get bitten.

UnhappyAndYouKnowIt · 16/02/2025 13:04

I saw a funny photo about the best Tunnocks debate and thought about this thread and now I can't post it ☹️

KnottyAuty · 16/02/2025 13:05

Merrymouse · 16/02/2025 11:43

I think the BBC have a policy of following the practice of the court. (We learn when they use the preferred pronouns of convicted raptists)

Looks like the Scottish Daily Express are just doing the same...

Thats also muddled though. The court uses preferred pronouns. The claimant/respondent have to apply to do differently

BonfireLady · 16/02/2025 13:05

Merrymouse · 15/02/2025 13:59

Particularly liked this line

"Nowadays, employers want to be inclusive, and they are allowed to be better employers than the law requires."

This is the line that leapt out to me as well.

A few PPs have mentioned Isla Bumba's lack of expertise in this field and her age. I'm starting to forsee a scenario unfolding where she takes on the blame and internalises it, even though it's bigger than her and she's been encouraged to think of her role and her responsibilities as "better" than the law.

She's a convenient scapegoat for those who are really responsible for these policies. I hope she's made of strong stuff and can navigate this. In theory, she's not read any of the press coverage. Yes, she might be a fully indoctrinated follower of the genderist faithful but that doesn't make her solely at fault here.
I'm hoping for her and SP's case that she has an epiphany that she was out of her depth and that not all of that is on her shoulders. If she digs in and comes to the hearing with a mindset of increased anger (seen all too often when people are in the wrong and can't admit it to themselves), I'll feel less inclined to empathise, but even then I don't want her to feel like she needs to shoulder the entirety of the blame. The NHS could shaft her here and say she should have gone to HR for legal advice because of what it says in her job spec, irrespective of the fact that she isn't accountable for the content of the policy that she is following on same v mixed sex CRs. Obviously a completely different set of circumstances, but I'm thinking of a Dr David Kelly scenario when it comes to the potential impact of overwhelm when something controversial is being picked apart in the press and has become a national/international talking point.

Merrymouse · 16/02/2025 13:07

KnottyAuty · 16/02/2025 13:05

Thats also muddled though. The court uses preferred pronouns. The claimant/respondent have to apply to do differently

Yes, you are right - slightly different.

NotMaroonButRaspberry · 16/02/2025 13:08

Interesting re e the NMC revalidation points

A) in pretty sure she's been working at the linked MIU from reports in the papers so she isn't still on paid leave (although having to take annual leave to attend court seems a bit unfair , so hopefully they've all had time given for the legal process!)

B) I don't understand the point re all being at the same time as I have been registered for a very long time (not quite as long as SP but not far off) and so transferred to revalidation at the original point but mine was due last year (and I did it among much wailing and gnashing of teeth!) so it must be possible to be on different cycles presumably? Even for old timers.

C) The requirements are fairly broad and non specific and quite easy to cover. I've had mat leaves, and been very unwell for long periods in the past but always managed to make it up quite easily. And you don't have to have hands on clinical hours necessarily, though you do need to relate to your scope of practice. So hopefully she can be creative and make all the legal and tribunal upskilling she's been doing work towards her cpd! I've managed to maintain registration even in jobs that don't require me to be a registrant ie commissioning, lecturing

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