Trans Ideology - a real life debate

[Forester1]

So something that is far too rare - a proper debate

For me positions can be summarised as:

Mark Glenening - free speech paramount - and shouldnt have compelled speech
Helen Joyce - Single sex spaces are needed - males need to keep out - however they identify
Freda Wallace - Me, me, me, my sex life, me
Peter Tatchell - Akin to fight for gay rights, black rights. I don’t see any issues. Be kind.

What does KPSS stand for?

Keep Prisons Single Sex

Keep Prisons Single Sex, I think.

Which would make Freda's remark about it nonsensical.

When I tell people that some men who identify as women do so from sexual motivations, it's seen as a really nasty thing for me to say - almost bigotted. And then you get Freda on stage just being openly sexually explicit!

I do think the sexual motivation is a big reason why both sides will never see eye to eye. Freda said something like 'men will support 'sex matters' in public, but in private they'll f**k me." For people like Freda, the fact that men privately have sex with them is a major reason why they think they are women. You can deny Freda's womanhood all you want but, aha, men actually have sex with Freda while Freda is dressed like a woman! Checkmate. Whereas for us, this is entirely irrelevant to womanhood and just adds to the argument that what is going on here has something more to do with the murky depths of male sexuality.

Good plan 👍

If it were, I believe you would have to head to a designated sex dungeon rather than a plain old loft, so I think you're safely above suspicion.

Nobody thinks Freda is a woman, especially not the people he is having the sex with.

I don't think Freda knows what misogynistic means. They probably think it has something to do with attitudes to men.

PT was like he was preprogrammed to spout various phrases and was clearly pissed off at pissed up Freddie who is just like the drunken aul lad in the corner of the pub who thinks he has a chance with the Women in the twenties.

It looks to me like Freda was only allowed to be wheeled out in public if Tatchell had oversight. What with all the wagging fingers and the 'stop drinkings'.

The spectacular fail was imagining that Peter Tatchell is any kind of position to add credibility. 🤣

Hey, as the fragrant Freda said, who the Hell are you to say to judge these woman what their opinion of being a woman or lesbian is?

Yep, that's it, the ultimate make it all up as you fucking go along.

This is the main reason why I see far more value in the "other side" being represented by a transwoman whose motivation is more clearly from a viewpoint of gender dysphoria.
It doesn't change the clear boundaries that Helen so eloquently sets out but it does make the conversation more meaningful because transwomen with gender dysphoria are describing their belief in gender identity from a position of emotional discomfort.
On this specific point, I feel that the discussion on the recent "middle ground" thread on MN got further in to what it means for trans people when there is (rightly) a hard boundary between the sexes in law.

Stop comparing "gender" to race ffs!!!

I felt a bit bad for Peter too. I think a lot of what Helen/audience members said went over his head. He's so dug in that he can't see the contradictions in his position. Either he's a bit thick, or he was willfully misunderstanding the questions.

Just a few of his nonsensical positions:

We shouldn't generalise about any group, but single sex spaces are ok (but they should include trans women).

Biology shouldn't determine your future (a total misunderstanding of what that means, btw) but women and men do have different brains, and trans women's brains look like women's.

I know a trans woman who is shorter than all of the other players on a woman's football team [implying that for this reason, it's appropriate for that player to play on the women's team] - so it's not all about self-id, then? Should short men go to women's prisons?

He's actually a pretty regressive bloke - his statement about everyone having a gender identity based on how they present was 😑. Guessing he considers a woman with short hair and trousers to be either a lesbian or a man. 🤷🏻‍♀️

I'm still chuckling. It was soooo gold.

Freda fighting their corner with, the reason you're wrong is because of all the men I fuck in clubs.

I know everyone sees the peculiar way in which these men boast, but can anyone in their wildest imagination, understand how that little anecdote could be thought of as anything other than a shudderingly powerful slam dunk for single sex spaces??

When I tell people that some men who identify as women do so from sexual motivations, it's seen as a really nasty thing for me to say - almost bigotted. And then you get Freda on stage just being openly sexually explicit!

I feel like this is something that 5 plus years ago everyone recognised. That some men get a sexual kick out of cross-dressing wasn’t remotely controversial a decade ago. It’s as if there has been a collective amnesia.

Probably the main reason why the TRAs have been so keen to push the narrative that children know from babyhood whether they have been born in the wrong body, accompanied by pictures of cute kids and groundless propaganda about suicide. People objecting to gender ideology are assumed by many to be nasty bigots picking on sad children and vulnerable same-sex attracted males, not arguing against sexual fetishists and predators getting access to female-only spaces and services.

It's such bollocks. And you're quite right, he's a bit thick.

so it's not all about self-id, then? Should short men go to women's prisons?

Well they have to be short, non-sex offending, but wear dresses 🤣

Wonder why any non-cryptic talk of Malaga Airport letters will be deleted on MN, yet there’s a Reddit group called Ask Malaga Airport letters, with posters talking about their experience of travelling via said airport.

Naw. Chipz is about 20 years younger.

💯
Nailed it

According to Helen Joyce, it was Tatchell that invited Freda.

This is great evidence of why NO DEBATE is so importantt to the Gender ideologues. They have nothing of substance - nothing.

Freds is as mad a box of very mad frogs.

Peter is a man trapped in a confusion of very disingerious "be kind" fallacies. Full of mistakes and contradictions & desperately riding off the back of "I was a great guy in earlier decades" <really?? https://x.com/LilyLilyMaynard/status/1717013743459074321?s=20 > .

He very clearly makes no sense at all.

Is Tatchell a double agent now?

Oh no, has 'Malaga Airport ' had its time on here now and a new code word to be sought?

Indeed. I was just looking through some past threads to see if I could find the screenshots from Ann Combes' underground online life (linked to fetish sites about women breastfeeding) and the public life that Ann portrays (writing about having felt like a female since a young age). Sadly I drew a blank on finding the right thread as there were two: one from when Ann created an almighty fuss about being given a locker key to a third space for changing and one after the Sheffield British Swimming Championships changing room debacle.

On plus note, one thread I was reading through had a lot of comments that had been deleted by MNHQ for "misgendering" Ann. Whereas that shouldn't happen here because Freda said on at least two occasions "You can call me a man if you want. It doesn't bother me".