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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Trans Ideology - a real life debate

1000 replies

Forester1 · 26/10/2023 19:11

So something that is far too rare - a proper debate

For me positions can be summarised as:

Mark Glenening - free speech paramount - and shouldnt have compelled speech
Helen Joyce - Single sex spaces are needed - males need to keep out - however they identify
Freda Wallace - Me, me, me, my sex life, me
Peter Tatchell - Akin to fight for gay rights, black rights. I don’t see any issues. Be kind.

DEBATE: Does transgender ideology threaten liberal values?

Debates surrounding gender identity have gained prominence in the last few years.Trans rights activists have argued that trans people have a right to be reco...

https://youtu.be/Va3i-_Fbfpo?feature=shared

OP posts:
Thread gallery
48
Datun · 27/10/2023 10:24

CorruptedCauldron · 27/10/2023 09:47

Just watched a few more extracts. The body language is very telling between Peter and Freda. There’s a moment where Freda puts a hand on Peter’s arm and he pulls away, looking irritated. (Around 1hr 3 minutes in).

Also, Peter tries talking about trans people’s brains being more like those of the opposite sex - and then Freda disagrees, undermining his argument (which Helen deftly debunks too)! I can imagine Peter saying to Freda afterwards: “I’m not angry; I’m just disappointed.”

You let me down, you let yourself down, you let this balloon down

EasternStandard · 27/10/2023 10:27

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 27/10/2023 10:18

it's disappointing really how unconvincing Freda and Peter are

unsatisfying. like watching Manchester Unite crucify Torquay United

<checks for other signs of male gender identity>

The whole ideology is unconvincing

It’s why everyone, including institutions, have to use such ridiculous tactics to get women to stop discussing it

Datun · 27/10/2023 10:33

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Helen Joyce had to perform an unbelievably difficult role here, balance her cool soothsaying with the need to protect herself from Freda's encroaching hostility. Freda was literally spitting venom in her direction, his hate for women is palpable.

Indeed, his invective and raised inflected speech was telling. Every anti woman diatribe had an up accent. Every last word in sentences was spat out.

Yep. It almost wasn't necessary to listen to the arguments. Just Helen's rational, reasonable tone of voice and clear contempt for Wallace. And Wallace's rage.

A walking advert for single sex spaces.

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 27/10/2023 10:34

EasternStandard · 27/10/2023 10:27

The whole ideology is unconvincing

It’s why everyone, including institutions, have to use such ridiculous tactics to get women to stop discussing it

Show quote history

yes

I think it's why the gender true believers get so poisonous, like the driving forces behind the discrimination at Garden Court Chambers or the Centre for Global Development.

Everyone has to shutup shutup shutup, otherwise they can't sustain the fragile belief

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 27/10/2023 10:35

ooh, this thread is trending. I think more and more people are interested in this stuff

Boiledbeetle · 27/10/2023 10:38

Datun · 27/10/2023 10:33

Helen Joyce had to perform an unbelievably difficult role here, balance her cool soothsaying with the need to protect herself from Freda's encroaching hostility. Freda was literally spitting venom in her direction, his hate for women is palpable.

Indeed, his invective and raised inflected speech was telling. Every anti woman diatribe had an up accent. Every last word in sentences was spat out.

Yep. It almost wasn't necessary to listen to the arguments. Just Helen's rational, reasonable tone of voice and clear contempt for Wallace. And Wallace's rage.

A walking advert for single sex spaces.

Show quote history

I've just realised that now unencumbered by what freda could do and say whilst working for the NHS Freda is now completely free to say what Freda likes.

Freda's interviews are just going to get more and more incoherent aren't they.

And if wine is available as often as possible as well...

I hope Freda has many many interview opportunities in the coming weeks.

In the words of Tesco

Every little helps!

StellaOlivetti · 27/10/2023 10:50

Just keep talking, Freda.

heathspeedwell · 27/10/2023 10:52

I feel almost embarrassed to say that I used to think Peter Tatchell was a decent person who cared about human rights. (Obviously this was before I read his strange views about lowering the age of consent).

It's quite staggering to see that he's prepared to go in public to debate this stuff without having even taken five minutes to try to understand what gender critical women are saying. And he even quoted the 'trans brain' nonsense that was totally debunked years ago.

He's not even trying to act as though he thinks women are people who deserve our own rights.

Thingybob · 27/10/2023 10:53

When talking about the governments plan for a conversion therapy bill, PT says that he has seen the government's proposals. Have they been made public and if not in what capacity does PT have special access.

Or was he lying?

HiddenLegoOuch · 27/10/2023 10:54

Has anyone from the tra community come out and congratulated FW for FW’s “dismantling” of HJ?

Does anyone, aside from FW, believe that debate helped the GI cause, or even painted transpeople in a good light?

princessleah1 · 27/10/2023 10:58

I went to this. It was great. Peter seems only used to speaking with people who agree with him, shallow and not able stand up to scrutiny. Freda was appalling and ignorant.

Signalbox · 27/10/2023 11:00

Rudderneck · 27/10/2023 10:16

I find myself wondering, when PT is sitting next to FW and that clearly male type aggressive sexual behaviour - he must have a sense of why women might not want that kind of person to be treated as a woman in the public sphere? I really wonder what he'd say if someone just said that to him, in that moment. Would you want your teen niece next to that person alone in a public change room?

PT does seem like he's a bit dim. And maybe that is really the issue, but I also wonder if, in his own mind, he's painted himself into a real corner. I think people can walk themselves right into a sort of intellectual dead end, but be so convinced turning back represents a kind of heresy, they just keep running into the wall. That sexual liberation mindset, the more time goes on, the less it hold up. If you take a narrow focus you can argue the logic, the problem is it clearly doesn't function in reality. But that is the lens he's been using for his whole adult life, it would probably be a huge disruption in his sense of who he is to turn away from that.

It’s interesting that PT refused to answer Akua’s question about excluding men on the basis of a few bad apples. He obviously knows his logic is flawed.

beastlyslumber · 27/10/2023 11:04

Well, this is why they were so adamant about #nodebate

AlisonDonut · 27/10/2023 11:05

Well that was fun.

I only listened but holy shitballs what a load of old shite Tatchell spouts.

I love that he was the one that put Fred forward for this. And that he thinks that women who wear trousers think they are men.

It is the same old story that we see on here day in day out.

Trans, trans, trans, trans trans and more trans
Helen: It's about men.
Waa waa trans trans trans trans and more trans
Helen: As I have said, it's about men.
Waa waa trans trans trans trans and more trans
Waa waa trans trans trans trans and more trans
Waa waa trans trans trans trans and more trans
Helen: I'm a saint.

Datun · 27/10/2023 11:05

I've just realised that now unencumbered by what freda could do and say whilst working for the NHS Freda is now completely free to say what Freda likes.

Yeah we're going to get more of Freda's girl dick, fucking men in fetish clubs and why that makes Helen a misogynist.

UnalterableSpaceCadet · 27/10/2023 11:05

Half a dozen office bods came out to the ship, for some reason. Two of them woke me up, talking loudly, then barging into my cabin - one of them said loudly, just before, "These rooms are full of people."

The reason was cheese, they were looking for cheese, they only found rooms of people when they had heard talk of a ship filled with rooms of cheese.

Datun · 27/10/2023 11:08

How blind must Tatchell be, sitting next to Freda, listening to the girl dick, fetish club stories, the incoherent ramblings, and the venom, and not think, wait, why am I on this side??

Brefugee · 27/10/2023 11:09

Too far in, is my guess. Sometimes it is really difficult to admit that something has gone too far. Maybe he'll come good, maybe not.

Datun · 27/10/2023 11:11

Datun · 27/10/2023 11:08

How blind must Tatchell be, sitting next to Freda, listening to the girl dick, fetish club stories, the incoherent ramblings, and the venom, and not think, wait, why am I on this side??

Answering my own comment, I believe it's because Tatchell has things in common with Freda, in terms of sex, sexuality, etc, and it's that that blinds them together.

Women, and their spaces, and their rights, are totally outside that, and are only even on the radar now because they are impeding it.

SinnerBoy · 27/10/2023 11:16

On painting himself into a corner, if he'd done it with actual varnish on an actual floor, he'd probably say,

"Yes, of course this is what I intended. I want to stand here for 12 hours, inhaling the fumes."

I mean, it's as credible as his tiny, delicate transw football player, who gets rouged up by all his burly female team mates.

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 27/10/2023 11:22

the Malaga airport code

[heads to Google]

Ah! I shall try to remember that.

SinnerBoy · 27/10/2023 11:24

Or the preppy American clothes shop.

Boiledbeetle · 27/10/2023 11:26

I think Peter didn't think through the situation right back at the beginning when stonewall added the T. He just thought, from his male point of view, that there shouldn't be any barriers to people wanting to live as their 'authentic selves'.

He, as a very self centred man, couldn't have conceived that women may have a problem with a man saying they are a woman.

Then by the time it did dawn on him that actually trans rights were nothing like what he'd been fighting for in regards to LGB rights, and that actually woman were going to be disproportionately negatively affected he had already painted himself into a corner, one that meant that if he backtracked he'd lose all his income streams overnight. And why would he want to do that over something that was never going to affect him in his day to day life.

So i think it's a combination, he didn't do his homework properly right back at the beginning and then when he did realise he either couldn't afford to back track or he didn't care about women enough to backtrack. Or both.

But you can see his heart isn't really in the trans rights side of the argument. It's obvious that he fundamentally disagrees with a lot of the current trans rights stuff from the way he keeps pissing off the trans rights activists.

He knows women are women and men are men. But he's going to keep spouting his rubbish until people stop paying him to.

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 27/10/2023 11:27

I've just watched that from start to finish. No wonder Helen and the free speech chap eventually started quaffing too. Good grief.

Tatchell is as dim as a 10 watt bulb, isn't he? The fact that children and teenagers sit on a 10-year waiting list doesn't mean it's OK to rush through treatment when it finally gets started! The fact that their parents in many cases are keen for them to have the treatment, or get railroaded into it because they are terrified by the 'better a live daughter than a dead son' type of propaganda from Mermaids etc doesn't mean the parents are right!

Helen Joyce was marvellous. It baffles me why politicians listen to people like FW and not people like Helen and Maya.

Boiledbeetle · 27/10/2023 11:27

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 27/10/2023 11:22

the Malaga airport code

[heads to Google]

Ah! I shall try to remember that.

As did I. You learn something new every day!

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