Gym /. Swimming changing issue

[BelfastDadof3]

I'll start first and say I'm sorry for intruding on a safe space for women.
Am a single dad (widow but not recent) with three kids 2 girls 11 +13 and a 9yr old boy.

Also I'd say kids are bright and confident, very excepting as I've tried to bring them up to accept all body shapes and not point / shame.

I go to the gym three times a week, do my workout and the kids have a supervised kids swim lesson (just the three of them) and I meet them after for a swim and play.

There isn't family changing, but I don't think it's applicable as my girls are old enough.

So having a muffin after the swim my 9yr old boy asked me.
"dad, why do most of the men walk about naked in the changing room?Willie's out. Is it not normal to have a towel around you untill you get your pants on."

So I said some people were just very free, but I think it's a bit over the top. Bit of a discussion about respecting others space etc and then my boy said" it's also odd that some shave all their body hair off, even the old fat men, it's weird looking"

Normal ish conversation.

Then he asked the girls what happens in the changing rooms. They were a bit horrified and said that most women and girls had big towels and kept private. Because - their words " girls arnt horrible like boys"

Then the eldest daughter said "a room full of men drying their bits would be duscusting. When the [transwoman - edited by MNHQ] is in the changing room we use the disabled cubicle. There's lots of room and we don't have to see him dry his bits. And (jokingly) his man bum and huge boobs do not look nice."

So really I don't know how to approach this.
I presumed that if a man transfered to a trans woman he would have female genitals. Maybe I'm niave.

It's a really nice gym and pool - Bannatynes - a treat for the kids..
Is this the same everywhere?
If I raise it with the manager am I being transphobic to suggest no penises in the female changing?

Of course there would till be the same concerns. A man without a penis is still a man.

They are still male.

The exceptions in the equality act are for single sex services.

So female only.

Yes! Penis, no penis still a man. A grown male adult naked with young girls. FFS

*still be

@CalMeKate
males without a penis are not women and therefore belong in the male changing rooms

Can you please stop fucking around with whataboutery and tell us. Do you have any evidence at all that any male at any stage of transition, with a trans identity commits sex crime at a rate lower than the general male population?

Do you? Or don’t you?

Yes.

If he's had his penis surgically removed, he's still a male.

If he's had his penis blown off after stepping on a landmine in his army career, he's still a male.

How about if a man is blind? Lets think about that. He's blind so he won't be able to see the girls, will he? So he'll be perfectly fine in the women's changing, won't he? I mean he's BLIND. He can touch, of course, and listen to the girls and fondle his bits cos their voices excite him, but he's blind so really, there's nothing for the girls to object to, is there?

You, I repeat for the third time, are a bloody disgrace.

Men without penises are still men. And women and girls are entitled to a female space without men present. For our privacy and dignity, as well as our safety.

Okay.. let’s take the penis out of the equation. If the transwomen had had surgery and no longer had a penis. Would there still be the same concerns?

Just stop. Stop trying to justify the removal of female rights and boundaries.

As most transwomen keep their fully functioning penis, and we can't separate those who have with those who haven't it's irrelevant.

Having a penis removed doesn't suddenly make a male non threatening, it just means he can't rape.

It's exhausting isn't it? That feeling like maybe I am a bigot then?

A dear friend got incredibly upset with me about this issue, and the fact that I not prepared to be referred to as a cis woman (woman will do just fine thanks). She can move over and #bekind all she wants, but she doesn't get to speak for me or any other woman.

Unfortunately the only way to stop this happening by stealth is to keep challenging it. It's uncomfortable and unpleasant, as you say, you don't want to stop anyone living a peaceful life and being happy!

My similar aged daughter, would be really disturbed by this and so would I. I can only assume other women in that changing room are scared to speak out. Which is the worst part, because not that long ago, these women would have screamed and shouted to get a man flashing his penis, out of there! If I was in there with my daughter I would absolutely cause merry hell! He is no better than a flasher! Your daughters shouldn't be subjected to it, no matter their age. We need men to be strong too and not to be afraid to speak out against it.

I can try and find the study that showed that males who had been imprisoned for sex offences and were subsequently chemically castrated actually had worse offending rates. They weren't able to relieve themselves by masturbation, so resorted to other methods to gratify themselves, often sadistic ones. If the thread is still up to post it ...

@BelfastDadof3 I'm sorry you're getting grief, but well done for advocating for your daughters. It might be worth asking them (in as unpressurised a conversation as you could manage) what they can remember about what he looked like in terms of height, hair colour etc, so you can pass that information on to the gym management as corroboration. That way if it occurs again, or other women complain, they have a record of that.

God the apathetic “this is the world we live in now” shite does my head in

until about 5 minutes ago everyone knew that adult men did not belong in women’s changing rooms or toilets or rape support groups or refuges or sport etc. that was “the world we live in” why was our world given away without our consent?? Nobody bloody asked us

apathy is one of the strongest enablers going

Women didn’t have the vote that was “just the world we live in” but that didn't make it fair or right so we fought for it - and we’ll fight for this!

we want our bloody stuff back!!

OP, well done for fighting for your daughters. It's absolutely outrageous that anyone has to fight to show why males don't belong in female spaces.

@BelfastDadof3 good for you. Ignore the idiots on WhatsApp

@BelfastDadof3 Clearly Corporate office believed your daughters. I suspect you are not the first one to question the presence of a male in the female changing rooms.

How it's policed is going to take a bit of effort on the part of the gym. However, they're going to have to do it or people like you will simply stop paying membership fees. Bannatynes is the only gym I would consider joining because of this policy but if individual franchises (I assume they're franchises) aren't prepared to impliment it, it's a worthless promise.

Thank you for teaching your daughters that they're not just accessories to a "man's world" but are human beings with rights and entitlements of their own.

It's impossible to 'pretend' to be trans identified. The act of being 'trans' is, by definition, a pretense. It is an assumed identity in an attempt to mitigate the emotional upheaval of a number of mental health challenges (e.g. gender dysphoria, internalized homophobia, trauma, anxiety, etc.) in a best case scenario and a convenient avenue of access for predators in the worst cases.
If the prevailing rhetoric is that anyone can claim to be anything, then motivation and intent is irrelevant and all of these people are 'genuinely' trans. This only serves to underscore the point that there cannot be exceptions to single sex spaces for women and safeguarding of children must be prioritized.

https://jaapl.org/content/33/1/16

'A recurrent pattern of sex offending suggests the ingrained nature of deviant sexual interests. Orchiectomy alone, without attendant psychological change, may be insufficient to mitigate sexual recidivism in a person who is in the community and subject to temptations'

'For those individuals who harbor entrenched pedophilic or sadistic sexual preoccupations, the removal of the testes without accompanying cognitive‐behavioral interventions may leave potent psychological risk factors in place'

'As Hansen and Lykke‐Olesen27 noted, surgical castration is a treatment of symptoms and not a cure. The latter must be emphasized, as orchiectomy in high‐risk offenders may create an artificial sense of safety. This is not to suggest that the existing orchiectomy data are of no value in current sex offender risk assessment. Rather, the risk analysis should reflect a prudent application of the orchiectomy data to the assessment of the individual sex offender.'

Posted above study for info, and to illustrate why the idea that a male who has lost his genitalia may not necessarily present a lower risk.

Strange behaviour would include;

• A man intentional flashing his genitals in the changing room
• a man having an erection in the changing room
• a man touching his penis to engage in sexual activity in the changing room
• a man taking photos in the changing room (regardless whether it is a selfie or not)
• a man having a conversation with two teenage girls in the changing room
• a man pretending to be a transwomen to access women and or girls in the changing room
• etc etc

So @CalMeKate - firstly, to consider this we’d need your (or any) definition of a transwoman and the key differences between that person and a man pretending to be a transwoman to access women and or girls.

Then we’d look at the common factor here which is male and think about how criminologists describe sex as THE most important determinant if criminality (NAMALT obvs).

Then we’d look at all the scenarios you describe above and conclude that instead of waiting for a harmful act to occur as you seem to want (are you sure you know about safeguarding??), we want to prevent these bad things happening and so we say that everyone male, regardless if identity should be excluded from spaces where they could commit these crimes.

Simples.

Well done OP, I'm sure you are shaking, but you did the right thing.

Penis or no penis, people with XY chromosomes should not be in women-only spaces. All women and girls have a right to women-only spaces with no XY people in them.

Breast implants are a major red flag. I suppose it is possible some transwomen so not use them as a masturbatory aid, but the fact that some do, and advertise the fact, makes all of them suspect.

You missed one Kate:

Strange behaviour would include;

A MAN IN THE SINGLE SEX WOMEN'S CHANGING ROOM (no matter how that man chooses to identify).

Yes @CalMeKate The point is that they are male. The penis kind of makes it worse, but even if a male person had had their penis removed or inverted, they would still be male and shouldn’t be in the female changing rooms.

Blimey

Could i post that on another thread please ?