Gym /. Swimming changing issue

[BelfastDadof3]

I'll start first and say I'm sorry for intruding on a safe space for women.
Am a single dad (widow but not recent) with three kids 2 girls 11 +13 and a 9yr old boy.

Also I'd say kids are bright and confident, very excepting as I've tried to bring them up to accept all body shapes and not point / shame.

I go to the gym three times a week, do my workout and the kids have a supervised kids swim lesson (just the three of them) and I meet them after for a swim and play.

There isn't family changing, but I don't think it's applicable as my girls are old enough.

So having a muffin after the swim my 9yr old boy asked me.
"dad, why do most of the men walk about naked in the changing room?Willie's out. Is it not normal to have a towel around you untill you get your pants on."

So I said some people were just very free, but I think it's a bit over the top. Bit of a discussion about respecting others space etc and then my boy said" it's also odd that some shave all their body hair off, even the old fat men, it's weird looking"

Normal ish conversation.

Then he asked the girls what happens in the changing rooms. They were a bit horrified and said that most women and girls had big towels and kept private. Because - their words " girls arnt horrible like boys"

Then the eldest daughter said "a room full of men drying their bits would be duscusting. When the [transwoman - edited by MNHQ] is in the changing room we use the disabled cubicle. There's lots of room and we don't have to see him dry his bits. And (jokingly) his man bum and huge boobs do not look nice."

So really I don't know how to approach this.
I presumed that if a man transfered to a trans woman he would have female genitals. Maybe I'm niave.

It's a really nice gym and pool - Bannatynes - a treat for the kids..
Is this the same everywhere?
If I raise it with the manager am I being transphobic to suggest no penises in the female changing?

Is that supposed to be an endorsement? Because a setup like the one you're describing is in itself egregious sex discrimination. I've experienced swimming pools like that when I lived in the Netherlands - minuscule number of showers, all out in the open poolside. Fine for the men in their itsy-bitsy speedos, but no fucking good at all when you're in a swimsuit as you're still left with chlorine all over your skin for the rest of the day or else have to make a trip home to shower. For somebody tending to neurodermitis such as me it severely curtailed my ability to access the pool.

Quite,they're all men and they all need to stay the fuck out of women's spaces.

The likes of CalMeKate are encouraging things to escalate. Get them used to seeing penises in women's spaces, then maybe erect penises. What about touching that lovely woman penis? Come and stroke it little girl, it's ok as it's in the women's area so not a problem.

Normalising men getting their cocks out in front of girls is in no way ok. You are setting girls up to be abused and not feel that they can tell anyone or get any help. When they are raped, you won't care and will probably say it's their own fault and that they wanted it. It makes no difference if it is a transwoman or a man pretending to be a transwoman, the effect is exactly the same which is why no males should be in women's spaces no matter how they identify

exactly. Calmekate must really be feeling like they are creating a better world here. ‘On Monday I told a single dad his young daughters need to get used to penises in their pool change rooms, that’s a tick for me!’ On Tuesday I’ll be explaining to kids in foster care why their safety doesn’t matter so don’t go making complaints if you’re uncomfortable in your foster home, and I haven’t planned Wednesday yet.

Seeing as some story time readers are already escalating to letting children touch them as a way of "learning" about the body (or is it learning tolerance or new things? ), my bet is that you are spot on @TWETMIRF

A "better world" for whom?

We all know it's not for children, particularly girls, and women.

Maybe Calmekate and her ilk might one day realise who, exactly, they're enabling and making more comfortable.

I'd like to think they'll realise their stupidity sooner rather than later but I expect they'll just entrench themselves further till they are turned on themselves.

Pity there won't be anyone left to help them.

This has always been a hypothetical argument for me until last night (and I'm firmly in the 'no dick in the women's changing room' camp).

I was changing (at a Fusion Lifestyle leisurecentre, if its relevant). There are no cubicles in the women's, just a couple of toilet cubicles, a couple of shower cubicles and a square space in the middle. It's usually busy but for some reason I was the only one in there.

I was wearing only shorts, drying my top half when a person looking very much like a young man walked in. My instinct was utter shock, and to instantly step back, cover myself and I was on the verge of saying 'this is the women's!' but then my conscious mind caught up and I realised that that could start an unwanted interaction and that I was alone and half dressed. I have never been sexually abused but i felt vulnerable and scared. It was just instinctive.

I'm not shy or ashamed of my body, in fact I regularly wild swim and am quite adept at discreetly changing with minimal facilities, occasionally in the company of male swimmers. But this was different, because I want expecting it, I thought I was in a female space and they were between me and the door and I felt trapped and vulnerable. Luckily, once I was dry and fully dressed and turned around again they'd gone.

Now I realise I may have been mistaken. It could have been a butch young woman or even a trans man, which is one of the reasons I stayed quiet. They were fully dressed, not imposing on me, going about their business.

But my point is my brain perceived a man in that female space and I reacted to that instantly. I didn't realise how powerful that reaction would be. Its a reaction that my conscious mind tempered - I chose not to speak - but in some circumstances that instant reaction may keep me safe.

And yet some people on here are arguing that we should train young girls out of feeling like this, out of recognising any incongruence of a man in a female space at all, even when the man is naked.

I just don't get it. Our feelings matter too.

If they had got their cock out (discreetly or not) I'd have been terrified. I'd like to think I would have left, finished getting changed in a public area and told anyone who would listen why. But I don't know that I'd have been brave enough. And yet young girls are supposed to negotiate this territory. It beggars belief.

What has happened is that the societal contract that men stay out of women's space has been broken. Deliberately taken apart.

Girls are now taught that if there is a male in their space, naked, they must 'look away' or worry about what words they are using to describe their violation.

I don't know if I have the words for how evil and dangerous this is.

That is a really accurate and succinct description.

It's appalling.

Also butch and/or gender non conforming women are also bearing the brunt of the broken social contract. We never used to question anyone in the Ladies (I still haven't) but we are more vigilant and uncomfortable, just in case it's a man, that our butch sisters suffer for it.

That's also true, and it's sad.

I pity any parent who has a conversation with [their] child about people with differing abilities so they were informed and aware @CalMeKate because that covers the entire population so you’d be there a very long time. Disabled isn’t a dirty word, you know 🙄

@BelfastDadof3 I hope you & your children are ok: it’s a terrible situation to have been put in. Hopefully the gym will fix things & people on WhatsApp will maybe stop their nonsense.
Not sure if it’d help or not to point out there’s a trans woman in Belfast after selling t-shirts over FaceBook (please note they seem to have made the link private but there are archive images in the thread) with the slogan “if you see a TERF punch them in the fucking face” with a picture of Sarah-Jane Baker who was recalled to prison for breaching terms licence after saying this (to resounding cheers) on stage at London Trans Pride. Baker is facing further charges (causing harassment alarm & distress plus encouragement to violence) after an initially less-than-stellar response by the police. A sort of “you’re saying the way it is now is that I’ve to accept my wee girls not just changing alongside males [humans cannot change sex] but ones who want to batter them because they know human sex is binary & immutable? Not for saying or doing anything, just knowing that basic fact.” Can you invoke mummies & grannies if people unmoved by daughters? (Not that you should need to, but…)

Apparently SJB has gone on a hunger strike in order to get moved to the female prison estate. Drink as well as food, apparently.

Probably not the smartest of moves to have incited violence against women then. Makes for a trickier risk assessment for the authorities. As the TRAs never tire of telling us non-compliant women, actions have consequences. 🤷‍♀️

If he's going without water then it will only be 2 days before he's on a drip, they won't let him dehydrate to death.

If he wants to starve himself to death who are we to stop him?

He identifies as someone who will not eat or drink, it would be awful to not affirm him in this

Quite,trans rights etc.

It would be conversion therapy, right?

Very few people have the self-control to starve themselves to death. SJB does not strike me as a person with any self-control.

Phew, eh?

I actually find this offensive, considering the serious and important causes that have been supported by hunger strikes. To even claim to be hunger striking for the "right" of male abusers to be held in female jails. Disgusting.

All for drama and attention. As per usual with these people it’s all about them

And then I wonder if I'm being naive. Is hunger striking something prisoners do often, or say they're doing?

Ian Brady used to do it over pretty much anything, once just because he was moved wards in the same secure hospital.
He strikes were pretty half hearted though, staff said he had secret toast and cuppa soups.

(I only know this after googling prison hunger strikes earlier after hearing about SJB, I’m not an Ian Brady super fan!)