Gym /. Swimming changing issue

[BelfastDadof3]

I'll start first and say I'm sorry for intruding on a safe space for women.
Am a single dad (widow but not recent) with three kids 2 girls 11 +13 and a 9yr old boy.

Also I'd say kids are bright and confident, very excepting as I've tried to bring them up to accept all body shapes and not point / shame.

I go to the gym three times a week, do my workout and the kids have a supervised kids swim lesson (just the three of them) and I meet them after for a swim and play.

There isn't family changing, but I don't think it's applicable as my girls are old enough.

So having a muffin after the swim my 9yr old boy asked me.
"dad, why do most of the men walk about naked in the changing room?Willie's out. Is it not normal to have a towel around you untill you get your pants on."

So I said some people were just very free, but I think it's a bit over the top. Bit of a discussion about respecting others space etc and then my boy said" it's also odd that some shave all their body hair off, even the old fat men, it's weird looking"

Normal ish conversation.

Then he asked the girls what happens in the changing rooms. They were a bit horrified and said that most women and girls had big towels and kept private. Because - their words " girls arnt horrible like boys"

Then the eldest daughter said "a room full of men drying their bits would be duscusting. When the [transwoman - edited by MNHQ] is in the changing room we use the disabled cubicle. There's lots of room and we don't have to see him dry his bits. And (jokingly) his man bum and huge boobs do not look nice."

So really I don't know how to approach this.
I presumed that if a man transfered to a trans woman he would have female genitals. Maybe I'm niave.

It's a really nice gym and pool - Bannatynes - a treat for the kids..
Is this the same everywhere?
If I raise it with the manager am I being transphobic to suggest no penises in the female changing?

I also meant to say thankyou and then became distracted. Terrible manners on my part!

Yeah, it will never be the normal in my world.

I can't believe we're teaching a generation of girls that they're less of a woman than a chap in a dress.

The best we can all do is have conversations with your children about boundaries and what is and isn’t acceptable behaviour

The best we can all do is to educate our children on reality, and make sure they understand that it is impossible to change sex, and that transgender people should have the right not to be discriminated against in employment or housing but should not have rights that no-one else of their sex has.

A transwoman has no legitimate human right to anything that any other man doesn't have a right to. That means that transwomen do not have the rights of women, and transmen do not have the rights of men. Transwomen do have the rights of men and transmen do have the rights of women. [There is at least one case, relating to primogeniture, where the law as it stands is nonsensical because it favours men over women.]

Twitter has found this. Duncan Bannantyne has replied. https://twitter.com/ripx4nutmeg/status/1690271154383052800?s=46&t=FEh294o-35lpeIa32wfkMQ

Good to hear.

I'll give a quick update, and then maybe ask for the thread to be deleted if possible.

This has turned into a shit storm. The Bannatyne manager simply refused to believe it had happened and wanted / demanded to speak to my children to ascertain the truth.

I don't want to retraumatise or make more of it to the kids, so I said that if he wanted a "statement" from my girls it would involve some combination of police/lawyers.

He asked what my desired outcome was, so I said that I would like to expect that in a room where my girls are going to be naked and unsupervised there wouldn't be male genitals on show.

It clearly made them feel uncomfortable.

I did suggest that an easy solution would be that someone whos genitals didn't "fit the room" could maybe use the cubical or the room for the disabled changing.

I kind of lost it at that point, didn't get angry or raise my voice, but just said "I really can't believe I'm asking politely for you to reassure me that you will do your best to ensure my can get changed and briefly be naked without looking up and seeing a cock and balls“ (sorry)

I got home and received a phone call from a lady in Bannatynes corporate who apologised and assured me what Bannatynes policy was.

I appreciate that it's politically sensitive and that solutions will take time to sort out. But I just don't think this needs to be so hard.

You think that if a man has breast implants he is de facto not a threat? Can you see any problems with this proposal?

So we have to wait until this male person has behaved inappropriately in front of young girls before he can be excluded from what should be a female-only space? Is that how safeguarding works in your world?

Why do you say this male didn't act inappropriately? He has entered a women's changing room and paraded his naked body in front of young girls and made a show of 'drying his bits'.

What do you think is the relevance of him having breast implants? A man having breast implants doesn't mean that he's safer around women and girls than any other man. This might help you to understand:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22005209/

“my point is this situation, with a transwomen being in a typically female space, is not isolated and will continue throughout their lives. They need to feel safe and comfortable to navigate these situations.”

Yay for Kate!! Here advocating that girls lower their privacy and sexual boundaries to accommodate male people!!!!

Go on girls!!! Lower your boundaries so that future male people can be naked in your presence and you will feel that it is normal and righteous! That you won’t know until you reach adulthood what was abuse or not is not an issue girls!!! Just do it because males have needs that outweigh yours!!!

Wonderful. Thanks for the advice on how to groom our daughters for use by male people who feel it is appropriate to be naked in front of girls!

We talk about strange behaviour, not stranger danger.

Then you are doing your daughter a disservice. It should be both.

I'm glad you got an answer but oh my goodness, what a mess.

If they can't guarantee your daughters' safety and privacy then you presumably have to be released from your contract. Your girls will lose out on their swimming lessons and yet again, female lives are curtailed because of the behaviour of a male.

It's shite.

I can see that it would obviously be hard to police. Lots of trans women look perfectly feminine, so it would be hard to know if a hidden penis was walking in.

Maybe signage to reinforce the point, and then someone with a penis would at least know to use a cubicle.

Good luck OP. You have set the ball rolling. It may be that the police will be the next stop. But whatever you do, you have made management understand that they have not communicated their policies clearly.

Well from twitter it would seem Duncan Bannatyne himself has your back here.

Take that opportunity and talk to him.

You are welcome!

By definition any male person going where women are undressing gets naked in front of them is a predator.

Great news that Bannatyne corporate have reiterated the single sex (not single gender) policy.

How have we reached the point where woman are arguing for the rights of penis owners to be naked in front of young girls and that parents need to make sure they’re aware this is a situation they should accept as normal?

Seriously WTAF?

I would suggest some very clear signage at the door, noting the appropriate exclusion clause. And that if any women or girl is uncomfortable they are to go immediately to reception have have security remove the person.

that is the very least to expect.

The fact the transwomen has breast implants implies to me that this isn’t a man pretending but someone who was born male and now identifies as female.

Anyone got a photo/video of the men in new York during the SFW thing that KJK couldn't get to? The one where the man with the boobs is playing with them and jiggling them.

This has turned into a shit storm. The Bannatyne manager simply refused to believe it had happened and wanted / demanded to speak to my children to ascertain the truth.

This is a classic response isn't it. Refuse to believe it.

They have to make their policy clear to all their members.

It is perfectly legal to use the single sex exceptions in changing rooms. There is nothing political about it.

We are just surrounded by gaslighting bullshit. Even here.

Or the one threatening women violently while topless indicating to their bare breasts as if that is to make it seem that they are ‘safe’…. While threatening women with violence. ….

I got home and received a phone call from a lady in Bannatynes corporate who apologised and assured me what Bannatynes policy was

That's great. Now the gym staff will need to enforce that policy.
The staff will know the person you are referring to if it is a regular gym user.

That person should not be in the female changing room at all. Not even in a cubicle.

Honestly I'm just worn out by whole thing. I'm now getting quite a lot of crap on a WhatsApp group, because apparently "this is the world we live in"

In as much as people should be allowed to live their own lives and be happy, I'm fully supportive of trans people. But I'm also supportive of my daughters having a safe space, and I think that takes priority. Ideally the trans movement could put pressure on companies to provide them safe spaces.

Okay.. let’s take the penis out of the equation. If the transwomen had had surgery and no longer had a penis. Would there still be the same concerns?

@BelfastDadof3 sorry to hear of your experience of raising concerns. That is absolutely disgusting and I would raise that as a separate concern. What a situation to navigate.