Gym /. Swimming changing issue

[BelfastDadof3]

I'll start first and say I'm sorry for intruding on a safe space for women.
Am a single dad (widow but not recent) with three kids 2 girls 11 +13 and a 9yr old boy.

Also I'd say kids are bright and confident, very excepting as I've tried to bring them up to accept all body shapes and not point / shame.

I go to the gym three times a week, do my workout and the kids have a supervised kids swim lesson (just the three of them) and I meet them after for a swim and play.

There isn't family changing, but I don't think it's applicable as my girls are old enough.

So having a muffin after the swim my 9yr old boy asked me.
"dad, why do most of the men walk about naked in the changing room?Willie's out. Is it not normal to have a towel around you untill you get your pants on."

So I said some people were just very free, but I think it's a bit over the top. Bit of a discussion about respecting others space etc and then my boy said" it's also odd that some shave all their body hair off, even the old fat men, it's weird looking"

Normal ish conversation.

Then he asked the girls what happens in the changing rooms. They were a bit horrified and said that most women and girls had big towels and kept private. Because - their words " girls arnt horrible like boys"

Then the eldest daughter said "a room full of men drying their bits would be duscusting. When the [transwoman - edited by MNHQ] is in the changing room we use the disabled cubicle. There's lots of room and we don't have to see him dry his bits. And (jokingly) his man bum and huge boobs do not look nice."

So really I don't know how to approach this.
I presumed that if a man transfered to a trans woman he would have female genitals. Maybe I'm niave.

It's a really nice gym and pool - Bannatynes - a treat for the kids..
Is this the same everywhere?
If I raise it with the manager am I being transphobic to suggest no penises in the female changing?

And also, surely there could be a separate changing area for trans men / women. Prob just a few cubicles.

Am I on the wrong side thinking this is not right.

@BelfastDadof3 I hate to tell you, but the vast majority of transwomen retain their genitals - estimates are something like 90%. Sadly it is not that uncommon for intact transwomen to use the women's changing rooms, as described in other thrrads on here. I was surprised when you mentioned that it was a Bannatynes, as I'm pretty sure that I've seen him mention in the past that their policy is that transwomen should use individual cubicles not the communal women's changing room. Definitely complain.

What that man is doing is exhibitionism and your DDs are his victims. I would complain. People are more willing to listen to men so you might get further than us mothers would.

I'll take it up with the manager, it's one of those situations where you don't want to come across as or be called some kind of phobic.

But it's almost just a decency thing. If you have a penis then don't get it out in the woman's changing.

I sound like an anti lgbt but I'm not, but is this sort of thing not covered by legislation.
My mum would have died if she had to see a strangers penis being dried in the changing room.
And I'm no prude, but even in the gents there's no need to walk about naked carrying a towel but not wearing it.

Bannatynes have a single sex changing room policy. He should be in with the men.

Please report it. I would ask your daughters if the male individual has exposed their penis whether intentionally or not. And I would be including that in the report.

As others have said, I, too, am surprised as Ballantyne has definitely said that he supports single sex changing rooms and that no males should be in female spaces, however that male feels.

Your daughters boundaries have been lowered so much that you have only just discovered that they have been in a changing room with a naked adult male person. I am sure this has now occurred to you. Your daughters never mentioned this to you previously. That should not be usual behaviour for girls. Why did they not mention it? Because they believed it would be transphobic?

Your daughters need to understand that they deserve dignity and privacy away from males and that whatever anyone else has told them, or whatever signalling they have received in movies/TV/books and social media, their discomfort is not hateful and they should absolutely tell you whenever something like this happens. That male people getting naked with them or watching them get naked is not acceptable.

Sorry. Bannatynes.

If I were you, I would report your OP and ask to change the word your daughters have used. You might find the thread is deleted because of that word.

I really feel for families in this day and age like your's with young children expected to deal with this sort of thing - yes I would take it up with management. I don't necessarily have the right language but I would express you feel uncomfortable that your young girls are being exposed to adult male genitals in their changeroom. Personally I would try not to label someone and focus on the naked male genitals because that is really the bit bothering you I guess.

The sadest thing about this thread ,is the way the ops daughters just accepted the man in their space ..they thought they were the ones who needed to be moved to a different space ,and he had more right to be there than they did…they didn’t complain they just moved themselves to a different space out of female changing ,because a penis was in a female space..
Jesus society has done a fucking number on girls ..

There's maybe a bigger conversation I need to have with my girls. I had taken it that they were using / hiding in the disabled cubicle that provides a space. And they were doing it so they didn't have to see the person drying there penis etc.

But that suggests that on at least one occasion they have see this person do this.

Your family's experience is one example of why so many women on mumsnet don't support self-id and are therefore insulted and called terfs. Have a look at what JK Rowling said that she's being vilified for - it wasn't anything offensive however as your post indicates its extremely easy to be called transphobic nowadays just for trying to protect what should be safe spaces for women - that is, people without penises. And by the way that would be considered a hugely transphobic statement!

We are del8gted to have male allies in this because sadly men tend to be listened to and taken more seriously when they speak up. So please do say something to the gym manager and also ask your daughters to always speak to you if this type of thing happens again. Your eyes have now been opened - please don't shut them again.

Please report back and let us know what gym manager says and the result. You sound like a great dad.

Definitely report it asap OP! The impression i’m getting from your post is:

1. Your daughters being made to feel uncomfortable with someone getting their penis out in front of them (so they should be and I would be too)

2. They feel they have to hide in disabled cubicle, indicating the changing room is a very open space with few cubicles. If the gym wants to allow trans women with penises into the space of young teenage girls and women, they need to provide lockable cubicles.

Don’t worry about whether you sound anti trans or or not. I couldn’t give a toss about how I sound when I advocate for safe spaces for females. Allowing someone to get their dick out in front of girls is disgusting.

I know this doesn't matter or add to it, but the trans person in question isn't very convincing. Mid 40s I think, fake boobs but dresses oddly and (I'm sorry) looks like a man in a dress. Some femine curves, but clearly a trans.

I'm now overthinking this. I'm a 48 Yr old adult .... So can talk for my self, but in a situation like this would it work better if I brought my sister along to the meeting with the manager. Would it seem less like I was trying to bully.

This actually sets it out well.
Thanks

There are some good links on this thread:

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4585119-advice-wanted-regarding-right-to-single-sex-changing-facilities

No I think it might actually work better if you complain. You don’t need to bring your sister to back you up. No one will listen to her because she’s a woman. They’ll just tell her she and your daughters need to ´be kind’. They might listen to you because they’re unlikely to feel able to fob you off with ´be kind’.

I think it’s fine to go yourself and it’s in no way bullying to stand up for your daughters. By the TW including themselves your daughters have to self exclude from the female changing room. Which isn’t fair. Have heard that gym being talked about before as having strict policies on TW not being in female changing rooms, so I doubt you’ll have an issue. Also you’re not doing this out of any “hate” (as everything not fully endorsing of TW seems to be considered) but out of concern for your daughters, which is entirely valid and appropriate

OP I’m not having a go at you here, but I’m fucking astounded that the culture has gotten so ridiculous and toxic around this issue that you fear speaking up for your young girls Incase you’re treated as “anti-trans” or being seen as non inclusive or judgey.

Please complain, I’m an adult and would feel super uncomfortable about this, I can’t imagine how your poor girls feel. They may even laugh it off now but that doesn’t mean they find it funny.

Luckily they have each other bless them.

Thanks for the support. I'll go down to the gym today and explain what happened and ask for their procedures.

I honestly thought people in that position (trans) would be super discrete and they'd be the ones to use the disabled cubicle. My daughter says it has a shower and a toilet.

I always have a big fear that because I'm 6ft3, bald head and quite built (I use the gym as my escape) I get pigeon holed as a thug / bully. And honestly I'm not. I just think that my daughters shouldn't have to see a penis untill they want to.
Thanks again.

Duncan Bannatyne confirmed last week on twitter NO males in the female changing rooms when a branch manager said they were allowed. He asked which manager was going against this policy.
if the manager disagrees, contact Duncan with which branch it is. He is shit hot on this.
If you have no luck and not on twitter I am happy for you to dm me and I will contact him.

Many many years ago I used to work with a trans woman. Yes you could still tell she used to be a man, but I have to say she was really really lovely and she would also talk openly about her former life. However, I was told she’d had the surgery down below, everyone knew her well and so it never even occured to me to feel unsafe in our staff cloakroom with her. Plus there was no nudity. There is a huge difference between being around a trans woman who you know well and feel comfortable with, and a total stranger getting their penis out in front of young girls.

At the end of the day, it’s still men that women are afraid of. Not their gender identity and you have a right to protect your daughters. You sound like a great dad :)

Please let us know how you get on @BelfastDadof3

The fear of being called transphobic, I think comes from it being lumped in with the Lgbt etc. So if I'm anti trans then I'm anti gay. So I'm now Hitler.
Gay / sexuality doesn't bother me, and Id support anyone getting treated fairly. But fair and equal treatment would surely mean boys changing room, trans men changing, trans women changing and then women.

I really don't think it needs to be this complicated.

Are you in NI op? NI is devolved from Westminster Parliament. idk the legislation there.

This document cites the different acts and is a guidance for workers in Belfast council dated feb 22. It basically states that people have the right under law to use the toilet facilities of their affirmed gender and tough luck for anyone wanting single sex spaces. But the council could be completely wrong as councils have been found to be. See point 9 about this and the comment on looking into gender neutral showers.

https://minutes.belfastcity.gov.uk/documents/s97428/Gender%20Identity%20and%20Gender%20Expression%20-%20Guidance%20and%20information%20for%20all%20staff.pdf