Would you ever consider a transwoman a woman?

[ZeldaFighter]

If a person had transitioned from male to female early in life and had lived quietly and unobtrusively as a woman for say 20 or 30 years, would you consider offering that person the status of "womanhood"?

Would you go on a girls night in a group with them?

Would you think differently if the person had had gender reassignment surgery?

What if they did actually pass?

What if they had a husband and kids?

This isn't a gotcha and I don't know the answers. I am instinctively annoyed by the taking away of women's things but I am also dismayed by the hurt and harm potentially caused to trans people. I'm trying to decide my own position and wondering if there are compromise positions. Apologies if this has been asked before and thank you for your thoughts.

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@NotImpressedAgain - can you explain how a biological male actually becomes a woman? How do the doctors change his skeletal structure, his endocrine system, his physique and, yes, his reproductive organs?

They can have cosmetic surgery and take hormones, but this does NOT make them female. It cannot make them female.

How?

It's like swapping the words 'cat' and 'dog'. You could then say one is the other but in reality they aren't the same animal.

I used to be part of the "be kind" brigade - thought of them as honorary women.

No longer. I've now done the thinking I should have done years ago.

TW are TW. They are not women.

Good to hear! What helped you see the light?

If I draw a nose on my hand with a felt tip pen is it a real nose? Can I smell with it? Can I breath through it? If I make sniffing noises as I put it close to something I want to smell, does that mean my attempt to increase my imitation through sound make it more likely that I can use it to smell?
What if it upsets me if you don't think the nose drawn on my hand is real? What if a politician passes a law saying that the felt tip pen nose is real? What if a policeman is standing next to us and I ask you if the nose is real? What if the policeman arrests you if you deny my felt tip nose is real? What if a judge sends you to prison for denying the reality of my second nose?
At some point people are just going to agree the nose I drew on my hand is real just to avoid problems like losing their job, being hounded by violent extremists, and being persecuted over a bad law. At no point will that person believe that felt tip nose drawing is a real nose, they will only pretend to avoid negative consequences.
Rene Magritte addressed this in The Treachery of Images in 1929. The picture shows a pipe. Below it, Magritte painted, "Ceci n'est pas une pipe" French for "This is not a pipe." The painting is not a pipe, but rather an image of a pipe.
The picture of a pipe looks like a pipe but it is not a functional real pipe. You cannot use it to smoke, it is an image of a pipe. You can paint tiger stripes all over your body. You might look a bit like a tiger, but you are a human, not a tiger. Once a human egg is fertilized its sex is fixed and immutable for the rest of its life.

Nope. Happy to be friends etc but you cannot become a woman. A mutilated man does not = woman. Living with a man and having kids does not = woman any more than Nathan Lane was a woman in the Birdcage!

‘The fact people are saying 'how can a trans woman have a husband and kids' says a lot about information shared about trans people on this website. Many trans women are married to men and they have kids (like a friend of mine). ‘

Sure, men can be married to men in the UK , David Cameron says that is the greatest achievement of his premiership.

Sure, they can coparent children. Those children could be adopted, in which case they are the legal, social and emotional children of those two parents - but they are not the biological children. That’s the meaning of adoption.

Children living with this couple as their parents could be the natural biological child of one of those parents, as the provider of the male gamete. But nature still requires a female gamete as well to make a person, and they need a womb to gestate in and be born from. No man can do that ( yet, anyway.). Monty Pythons box doesn’t work.

personally, I have no problem with a child living with two male people as their parents, but it is weird to pretend that one of those parents is the child’s mother. Because mothers can only be women.

Once a human egg is fertilized its sex is fixed and immutable for the rest of its life.

This is really not complicated to understand.

Yes.
Trans women are women.

Well I don't know about anyone else, but as an atheist Im always totally convinced by a senseless religious mantra delivered without any rational justification.

I wonder how it would be received if I started identifying as a transwoman. Get a prosthetic Adam's apple fitted and stuff a sock down my pants etc.

There are young women who have made satirical videos like this. It's gone down as well as you might expect.

"'We can only accept huntsman women whose heads have parted company with their bodies biological sex is female. You will appreciate that it would be impossible otherwise for members to participate in hunt activities such as horseman head juggling and head polo lived experience of what it means to be a biological woman without reducing it to stereotypes or minimising that aspects of our biology mean we are more vulnerable than men and entitled to single sex spaces. It is with the greatest regret, therefore, that I must inform you that you do not fulfil our requirements. With very best wishes, Sir Patrick DeLaney Podmore
Women everywhere (the cunty type)

I’m looking forward to counting up the yes/no answers when this thread closes in two pages time.

I can't remember if I even answered the OP.

No, OP.

The basic premise of a transwoman is that they are not a woman.

I watched SFW Belfast yesterday. Lots of speeches, each one brilliant and highlighting an aspect of being female.

the protesters had nothing other than slogans and bad behaviour.

that’s why TWANW, because they can’t articulate why they ARE. We can, we can do it with ease and usually with a sorrowful tale that all women understand.

so, no. Male people can’t be women any more than they fly.

Just turning up late to add my “NO”. And my mum’s.

So many brilliant and articulate comments as to why not and why it matters so much.

Purple hair and a head tilt I think.

Tinkly laugh followed by a bellow about how they've grown an actual cervix since being on the meds, and are far more womanly than us and our husband lust, lust, lust after them.

NOBODY believes that TW are women.
Literally NOBODY.
Even transwomen.

They may SAY they believe for various "be kind" reasons, or they have a friend of family member who identifies as such, or they are so deep into the dogma that they cannot get out due to disappointing or alienating their like minded brethren.
But NOBODY believes that sex change is possible in an real way, that men are actually women just because they say so, that being a women means anything other than a descriptor of a biological reality.

The basis of the whole trans "movement" is anger IMO. It's anger that the hurdle of biological fact cannot ever be passed. It makes them so enraged that there will always be the fact that there remains a very clear, distinct, and immutable difference between natal females and men who claim to be female.
It is a fact that can never be changed, and their anger and hatred is directed at those of us who dare to point out the plain truth.

Women are not castrated males.
Women are not weaker forms of males.
Women are not males pumped full of artificial female hormones.
Women are not males with wigs, make up, pretty clothes, heels and false nails.
Women are not males with surgically created approximations of breasts and genitals.
Women is not an identity that you can slip into.

Anyone who says they truly believe trans women are women is dishonest with themselves, either through misplaced loyalty or other reasons.

Trans women are trans.
They are not any form of women.

The push for 100% acceptance as women is what will kill their movement and kill a good part of previous sympathy and compassion that might have otherwise existed.

In the Matt Walsh video where the trans woman who says"I think I'm kind of cool" says that people are always telling him how much of a woman he is. Walsh really shows up how silly this is by saying that he never gets told how much of a man he is because it would be absurd.
TWAW is a demand for affirmation, and a denial of reality.

They may SAY they believe for various "be kind" reasons, or they have a friend of family member who identifies as such, or they are so deep into the dogma that they cannot get out due to disappointing or alienating their like minded brethren.
But NOBODY believes that sex change is possible in an real way, that men are actually women just because they say so, that being a women means anything other than a descriptor of a biological reality.

Exactly. Everyone knows that a man simply cannot magically become a woman or a dog or anything else!

I'm actually surprised the op is even asking the question...

@Blaueblumen
Exactly. Everyone knows that a man simply cannot magically become a woman or a dog or anything else!

Not for lack of trying judging by how pride parades have gone over the last several years......

NOBODY believes that TW are women.
Literally NOBODY.

I don't know about that. I think there are some very confused young people around who've got their ideas about sex and gender from captured teachers / outside providers and the internet.

I think they genuinely believe a transwoman is a woman. That transwomen can have periods. That transwomen can't get an actual biological woman pregnant. That transwomen can bear children.