Would you ever consider a transwoman a woman?

[ZeldaFighter]

If a person had transitioned from male to female early in life and had lived quietly and unobtrusively as a woman for say 20 or 30 years, would you consider offering that person the status of "womanhood"?

Would you go on a girls night in a group with them?

Would you think differently if the person had had gender reassignment surgery?

What if they did actually pass?

What if they had a husband and kids?

This isn't a gotcha and I don't know the answers. I am instinctively annoyed by the taking away of women's things but I am also dismayed by the hurt and harm potentially caused to trans people. I'm trying to decide my own position and wondering if there are compromise positions. Apologies if this has been asked before and thank you for your thoughts.

I suppose if someone genuinely passes you wouldn’t know, but I’ve yet to see a TW that passes, not without careful posing and photoshop anyway.

Alice Cooper must blow hotdiggedtydog's mind.

The degree to which the currently everywhere photos of Mulvaney doing caricatured 'girly poses' to advertise Nike have been photoshopped and doctored, would suggest that even for the most well known and face-is-my-fortune male people, they very significantly doctor the picture to feel it 'passes' to their own standard of passing.

There are many very attractive TW. They remain male, in the massive majority of cases easily perceivable in their reality as being male, and if they enter female spaces they exclude and distress females. How they look while excluding and distressing others isn't really the issue. 'Pretty' doesn't equal 'woman with freedom of access to females in state of undress'.

Wait til they discover John Wayne.

Interesting to see how many trans supporters say their acceptance is conditional on 'passing' and full SRS surgery.

As I have yet to see a man 'pass' as a woman, we basically only accept biological women as women.

Interesting how many TW use filters…

The degree to which the currently everywhere photos of Mulvaney doing caricatured 'girly poses' to advertise Nike have been photoshopped and doctored, would suggest that even for the most well known and face-is-my-fortune male people, they very significantly doctor the picture to feel it 'passes' to their own standard of passing.

yep, my DP had seen something online about the beer can shootout and he said "there was a picture of the trans person - she just looked like a girl!" and I said "No he doesn't!"

So I showed him Mulvaney's Nike bit and he collapsed into giggles at the ridiculous prancing, and said "yeah he didn't look like that on the picture I saw." Then I showed him the "hiking heels" video and he said "I'm genuinely offended for women now."

Mulvaney proved quite helpfully educational! DP had been going on at me in a similar way to OP about "what about the true transwomen, shouldn't you be kind to them" (not those exact words but it was the gist) and I was trying to explain that even the old school feminine-gay-man transwomen are often wildly misogynistic. After seeing Mulvaney in action he finally understood my point that there's no reason for anyone to identify as trans unless they believe in regressive gender stereotypes.

Oh. Yes.

Not just me then 😁

Thirdsummerofourdiscontent · Yesterday 23:00
If they have a vagina they are a woman imo.

(a) how would you know?
(b) does "vagina" mean an anatomically coherent structure, integrated with the rest of the female genitalia, or an artificial surgically constructed passageway (which is properly referred to as a "neovagina", not a "vagina"), which serves no purpose other than (i) to confirm mental self-image; and (ii) to permit some level of penetrative sexual activity.

With respect to (b), the lower end of the cervix bulges through the anterior wall of the vagina - so would this aspect of the vagina need to be present for a woman to have a vagina.

I shouldn’t read SM as it’s full of people talking about those who ‘pass’ and it’s never been an issue. Blah blah.
You know what, it probably hasn’t. I’m sure there is a teeny tiny number of trans people who ‘pass’ and have quietly gone about their business.
However they are in a tiny minority, the other 99% don’t and it’s really bloody obvious.

I’ve also read several people describing transmen they know who are ‘big’ and you couldn’t tell. Yeah right.

I attend a women's Mental health group and two of our members are transwomen. I welcome their presence and am happy to call them byvtheur chosen names and pronouns.
But I do think of them as transwomen rather than just women.

Why would they attend such a group?

@Snapfel - what would happen if a woman needed an all-female mental health support group, and thought that your Women’s support group would provide that, but then found two natal males there? Would there be separate, single sex provision for those women? What about women who for religious reasons, or because of domestic violence or sexual assault, either cannot be in spaces with natal males they don’t know, or who would be too afraid to be in a group with natal males?

Why can’t the trans women go to mixed sex groups? In my opinion, it is pure male entitlement for any natal male to push themselves into a group meant for women - natal females.

I attend a women's Mental health group and two of our members are transwomen

You attend a mental health group specifically for women that includes males ?

Ditto!

Given that TRAs claim to not apparently don't know the difference between Robert Galbraith and Robert Galbraith Heath, they probably can't tell John Wayne from John Wayne Gacy... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Wayne_Gacy

TRAs believe that John Wayne was a celebrated transman who changed his name from Marion Morrison when he transitioned.

1. No
2. It wouldn't be a 'girls night'. That aside, it would depend on how they were dressed and what facilities they wished to use (i.e. which toilets), plus if I got along with them generally. Sounds like fun huh!
3. No
4. No
5. No

What about Shirley Crabtree?

Yep. And the pair of them are proof that transmen can pass. You just need to be at least 6' 4" tall.

That takes me back! I’m 44 and would spend Saturdays watching wrestling with my grandad. Sorry, sidetrack but it gave me such a lovely memory of him then.

Shirley Crabtree- what a gal.

John Wayne Gacy could give make up tips.

Many male authors have published under female names if they are wanting to target a female market (or children’s), Dean Koontz for example. It is just marketing, that’s all…

No idea how this is linked to TW - lost that bit. No one can surely think that publishing (which is different to writing) under a pseudonym is equal to this gender identity first world problem 🤨

now off to identify as a duck and wade through some puddles. Pronoun is quake.

aka Big Mummy