Page 36 | Would you ever consider a transwoman a woman?

ZeldaFighter · 2023-04-10T17:10:43+00:00

If a person had transitioned from male to female early in life and had lived quietly and unobtrusively as a woman for say 20 or 30 years, would you consider offering that person the status of "womanhood"? Would you go on a girls night in a group with them? Would you think differently if the person had had gender reassignment surgery? What if they did actually pass? What if they had a husband and kids? This isn't a gotcha and I don't know the answers. I am instinctively annoyed by the taking away of women's things but I am also dismayed by the hurt and harm potentially caused to trans people. I'm trying to decide my own position and wondering if there are compromise positions. Apologies if this has been asked before and thank you for your thoughts.

turbonerd · 13/04/2023 19:14

NemoandDoris · 13/04/2023 18:18

Many male authors have published under female names if they are wanting to target a female market (or children’s), Dean Koontz for example. It is just marketing, that’s all…

No idea how this is linked to TW - lost that bit. No one can surely think that publishing (which is different to writing) under a pseudonym is equal to this gender identity first world problem 🤨

now off to identify as a duck and wade through some puddles. Pronoun is quake.

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A duck?

Aren’t you literally Nemo AND Doris?

I can’t keep up. Now nothing makes literally sense any more.

wanders off. Mutters darkly about armageddon and the end of days.

There’s a heavy metal festival in my borough called nearly Armageddon, but trust me it is pretty close to the real thing, except the heavy metal fans are unfailingly polite and a really Nice crowd.
In stark contrast to the happy clappy crappy rainbow unicorns who behave like deranged grey squirrels on speed.

What is the world coming to?

SpicyMoth · 13/04/2023 19:20

I think John Wayne (the actual John Wayne, not Gacey lol, I'm far too familiar with Gacey) is a bit before my time, I know of the name and immediately think of cowboys & westerns but Idk if that's right, can anyone bring me up to speed on how he's relevant in this context? Sounds interesting/amusing?

literallyarabbit · 13/04/2023 19:21

SpicyMoth · 13/04/2023 19:20

I think John Wayne (the actual John Wayne, not Gacey lol, I'm far too familiar with Gacey) is a bit before my time, I know of the name and immediately think of cowboys & westerns but Idk if that's right, can anyone bring me up to speed on how he's relevant in this context? Sounds interesting/amusing?

John Wayne's real name is Marion Robert Morrison

TheBiologyStupid · 13/04/2023 19:41

John Wayne was mostly known for his cowboy roles, but he played the centurion standing at the bottom of Jesus's cross in the Bible epic The Greatest Story Ever Told. It's probably apocryphal, but after he delivered the line "Truly he was the Son of God!" the director apparently said, No, John - say it with awe!" Wayne dutifully went for Take 2: "Aw, truly he was the Son of God".

(He also played Genghis Khan in yellowface in the execrable film The Conqueror...)

Chersfrozenface · 13/04/2023 20:26

Then surely in the Biblical epic he'd have been wearing a skirt.

ancientgran · 13/04/2023 20:29

JanesLittleGirl · 13/04/2023 15:41

TRAs believe that John Wayne was a celebrated transman who changed his name from Marion Morrison when he transitioned.

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Just shows ignorance doesn't it as Marion was a traditional name for boys and girls, French in origin I believe.

EmotionalSupportHyena · 13/04/2023 20:42

SpicyMoth · 13/04/2023 19:20

I think John Wayne (the actual John Wayne, not Gacey lol, I'm far too familiar with Gacey) is a bit before my time, I know of the name and immediately think of cowboys & westerns but Idk if that's right, can anyone bring me up to speed on how he's relevant in this context? Sounds interesting/amusing?

The Quiet Man is a dizzying array of Irish stereotypes through a mid century American lens.

Maureen O’Hara is bloody marvellous as Wayne’s fiery redhead love interest, shame it’s loaded with domestic-violence-as-romance tropes.

If you want to see a John Wayne movie without having to suffer a Western, it’s worth a watch (albeit an infuriating watch for a viewers in the 2020s)

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WcVd8NXtufM

THE QUIET MAN (Masters of Cinema) Original Theatrical Trailer

An exemplary entry in the filmography of master director John Ford, The Quiet Man contains all the aspects that mark Ford’s work: a poetic, deeply felt senti...

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WcVd8NXtufM

highfidelity · 13/04/2023 20:46

ancientgran · 13/04/2023 20:29

Just shows ignorance doesn't it as Marion was a traditional name for boys and girls, French in origin I believe.

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This is crazy.

If only John Wayne was still alive, he would be very very very vocal about this being untrue

SpicyMoth · 13/04/2023 21:11

Tysm for all the responses! <3
My irl name often is met with "But isn't that a boy's name?" (Except it's not because it's spelled differently and looking into name origins, it's always been feminine & originated in France) so that's super interesting to know about his backstory!

Chersfrozenface · 13/04/2023 21:12

John Wayne (originally and legally Marion Robert Morrison, though he also used the name Marion Michael Morrison) got his first name from his paternal grandfather Marion Mitchell Morrison (1945-1915).

His background was Scottish, Irish and English.

The grandfather's name may have been a surname originally, passed down the family.

ancientgran · 13/04/2023 21:15

highfidelity · 13/04/2023 20:46

This is crazy.

If only John Wayne was still alive, he would be very very very vocal about this being untrue

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What? You think it is untrue that Marion was considered a boys name as well as a girls name. Try googling it. Wait I'll do it for you.

https://www.thebump.com/b/marion-baby-name#:~:text=Marion%20is%20a%20gender%2Dneutral,also%20suited%20to%20baby%20boys.

Marion - Baby Name Meaning, Origin and Popularity

Learn about the baby name Marion including baby name meaning, gender, origin, and more.

https://www.thebump.com/b/marion-baby-name#:~:text=Marion%20is%20a%20gender%2Dneutral,also%20suited%20to%20baby%20boys.

ancientgran · 13/04/2023 21:16

SpicyMoth · 13/04/2023 21:11

Tysm for all the responses! <3
My irl name often is met with "But isn't that a boy's name?" (Except it's not because it's spelled differently and looking into name origins, it's always been feminine & originated in France) so that's super interesting to know about his backstory!

I was named for my dad, they'd given up hope of a boy, so I have a name that is used for males and females. Some nationalities automatically assume it is male and some that it is female which is sort of interesting.

highfidelity · 13/04/2023 21:20

ancientgran · 13/04/2023 21:15

What? You think it is untrue that Marion was considered a boys name as well as a girls name. Try googling it. Wait I'll do it for you.

https://www.thebump.com/b/marion-baby-name#:~:text=Marion%20is%20a%20gender%2Dneutral,also%20suited%20to%20baby%20boys.

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No, that's not what I meant, I was referring to this bit:

TRAs believe that John Wayne was a celebrated transman who changed his name from Marion Morrison when he transitioned.

🙄

Snapfel · 13/04/2023 21:23

SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius · 13/04/2023 14:59

@Snapfel - what would happen if a woman needed an all-female mental health support group, and thought that your Women’s support group would provide that, but then found two natal males there? Would there be separate, single sex provision for those women? What about women who for religious reasons, or because of domestic violence or sexual assault, either cannot be in spaces with natal males they don’t know, or who would be too afraid to be in a group with natal males?

Why can’t the trans women go to mixed sex groups? In my opinion, it is pure male entitlement for any natal male to push themselves into a group meant for women - natal females.

Those are valid questions and I don't know. The group is run by Mind so it must depend on their policies. There is no separate single sex provision.

ancientgran · 13/04/2023 21:27

highfidelity · 13/04/2023 21:20

No, that's not what I meant, I was referring to this bit:

TRAs believe that John Wayne was a celebrated transman who changed his name from Marion Morrison when he transitioned.

🙄

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Sorry lots of people don't believe Marion was a traditional boys name so I thought that's what you meant.

JanesLittleGirl · 13/04/2023 21:35

Sorry for all the confusion over John Wayne's real name. I was just being a bit sarky.

Rosesbloomingnow · 13/04/2023 21:57

Marion is a polish boys name, it was my grandfather's name.

Pinkbonbon · 13/04/2023 22:08

Generally no but id never say never.

I find Elliot Fletcher gorgeous.

And I'm 100% straight. I think.

Pinkbonbon · 13/04/2023 22:13

Pinkbonbon · 13/04/2023 22:08

Generally no but id never say never.

I find Elliot Fletcher gorgeous.

And I'm 100% straight. I think.

Oops wrong thread haha.
But elliot is a transman and I think I'd view him as a man. Though that might be tied in to how I view my sexuality. So I don't know if I'd ever see a transwoman as a woman. Maybe.

TheBiologyStupid · 13/04/2023 23:20

Evelyn Waugh's first wife was also called Evelyn. To avoid confusion ("I saw Evelyn in Harrods yesterday... ", etc.) friends referred to them as "He-Evelyn" and "She-Evelyn".

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evelyn_Waugh#Early_career

Evelyn Waugh - Wikipedia

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evelyn_Waugh#Early_career

Slothtoes · 13/04/2023 23:40

That’s brilliant

ScreamingBeans · 14/04/2023 00:16

How could I offer them the status of womanhood? It's not mine to grant. You're either a woman or you're not, nobody gives you it or takes it away from you. Men aren't women. It's not helpful to refer to men as any kind of women, it obscures what you're actually talking about

I'd go on a girls night out, have been actually years ago long before men started to claim that transwomen are women.

I don't care about men's feelings anymore. They've shown us how little they care about women. I regret anyone feeling hurt, but it's not my problem, truth, reality and women's rights are more important than men's feelings.

anyolddinosaur · 14/04/2023 06:59

I can not "award the status of womanhood", women are oppressed and dont have status.

I dont do "girls nights out". I'm a woman not a girl and I have drinks with people who share my interests, regardless of sex.

If they pass I wont know if they are male or female but unless I am sexually attracted to someone I dont treat them differently because of their sex.

Anyone who has had gender reassignment surgery deserves my pity, it is really harmful and should never be encouraged.

MarshaBradyo · 14/04/2023 07:37

ScreamingBeans · 14/04/2023 00:16

How could I offer them the status of womanhood? It's not mine to grant. You're either a woman or you're not, nobody gives you it or takes it away from you. Men aren't women. It's not helpful to refer to men as any kind of women, it obscures what you're actually talking about

I'd go on a girls night out, have been actually years ago long before men started to claim that transwomen are women.

I don't care about men's feelings anymore. They've shown us how little they care about women. I regret anyone feeling hurt, but it's not my problem, truth, reality and women's rights are more important than men's feelings.

Yes to this

borntobequiet · 14/04/2023 07:37

TheBiologyStupid · 13/04/2023 23:20

Evelyn Waugh's first wife was also called Evelyn. To avoid confusion ("I saw Evelyn in Harrods yesterday... ", etc.) friends referred to them as "He-Evelyn" and "She-Evelyn".

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evelyn_Waugh#Early_career

Evelyn Waugh was a notably savage satirist and I doubt would have had much time for genderism. However he has suffered form posthumous trancing himself:

https://www.mindingthecampus.org/2016/02/29/why-evelyn-waugh-became-a-female/

Why Evelyn Waugh Became a Female - Minding The Campus

This is an age of gender fluidity, when many are embarrassed to be caught occupying one of the two traditional gender identities year after year, as if no progress at all has been made on the gender frontier. Not Evelyn Waugh, however. The great Britis...

https://www.mindingthecampus.org/2016/02/29/why-evelyn-waugh-became-a-female/