Would you ever consider a transwoman a woman?

[ZeldaFighter]

If a person had transitioned from male to female early in life and had lived quietly and unobtrusively as a woman for say 20 or 30 years, would you consider offering that person the status of "womanhood"?

Would you go on a girls night in a group with them?

Would you think differently if the person had had gender reassignment surgery?

What if they did actually pass?

What if they had a husband and kids?

This isn't a gotcha and I don't know the answers. I am instinctively annoyed by the taking away of women's things but I am also dismayed by the hurt and harm potentially caused to trans people. I'm trying to decide my own position and wondering if there are compromise positions. Apologies if this has been asked before and thank you for your thoughts.

Do you get naked in libraries?

Is JK rowling literally getting on the shelves?

You KNOW that your comparison is absurd. It’s just MRA whataboutery.

I think where hotdog is getting stuck/seeing things differently to us is by believing the MRA trope that women-only restrictions such as women's sports, womens toilets are some kind of privilege which we're hoarding to ourselves.

And that this is the same as men hoarding their privileges like better access to jobs and higher pay (or lucrative book deals)

So JKR using a male nom de plume means that she's cheating male writers out of their deserved higher pay. Whilst at the same time, she's trying to keep women's changing rooms all for ourselves.

Ie we're trying to remove male privilege (higher pay and lucrative book deals) whilst keeping female privilege (women's changing rooms and sports categories).

The mistake you're making hotdog is that these women-only protections aren't privileges. They are accommodations we need to be able to take part in society fairly - the way men do without any changes and without even noticing.

It's the same as putting ramp access into a library for wheelchair users. This isn't an extra privilege over people who can use the stairs. We can't demand a helter-skelter to be put in to compensate (wheelchair users get their own access, so should we!). It's an accomodation. Without the ramp, the wheelchair-user can't get into the library to borrow books.

It's the same for women-only spaces. They're not a privilege, they're an accomodation to allow us to do stuff in our society which men can already do without even thinking. Without womens changing rooms, we can't try clothes on at the shop without men oggling us. Some women (especially Muslim women) aren't permitted by their religion to swim with men. So without women-only swimming sessions (which exclude all men) those women can't use the swimming pool or go swimming at all. Having a women-only swimming session isn't a privilege which men need to make up elsewhere. It's an accomodation so that they too can use the pool at all.

Wins the internet today, or yesterday. Is it when you see it or when its posted?

Harms no one other than the community of male authors trying to make a living under their own sex.

Can you explain in precisely what way the community of male authors (who have of course had such trouble trying to make a living compared with female authors ) are 'harmed' by a female author using a male nom de plume? How is 'Robert Galbraith' taking away income from them any more than another male writer? Or than a female writer using her own name?

Not a popular view on this board but yes, I would consider a trans woman a woman.

Can you say what you think a "trans woman" is? Maybe it's "not a popular view" because this type of magical thinking makes no sense?

Harms no one other than the community of male authors trying to make a living under their own sex.

Oh two secs while I get out my tiniest violin. 😂

I don't believe that there is anyone who literally believes that any male who declares himself to be a woman, is one.

I just think this type of statement is a thought terminating cliche. You know it doesn't make sense, so you don't interrogate it on a rational level. It's an article of your faith, what your ideology requires you to say.

Oooh! Someone should pop down the Garrick or the Savile and ask the members - best send a bloke though, eh?

Oh, and to stretch the library wheelchair ramp analogy just a little further...

When Transwomen insist on accessing women-only swimming sessions, they're doing the exact equivalent of able- bodied library users insisting on making the wheelchair ramp really steep and adding handhelds so that they can use it as a climbing wall.

Sure, there's still a ramp going into the library. But now it doesn't function as a wheelchair ramp, so wheelchair-users now can't use the library. Able-bodied users now have a choice of 2 ways in. Even though they only really needed one way in, in order to borrow books.

So if Transwomen go into women-only swimming sessions, it's the same thing. Now it doesn't function as a women-only session. Strict Muslim or Jewish women, or women who have been traumatised by male violence, now can't use the swimming pool. Transwomen on the other hand can now access every single session. Even though they only really needed access to the mixed sessions in order to go swimming.

This is my opinion only. Removing the options from many, if not most, women to use facilities (by inserting ones masculine body and entitlement into a space it should not be in), is, I think, the whole fucking point.

That's it. That's the ultimate point. To fuck up women's lives. Make things harder for them. Whether it's a conscious thing or its that destroying things is just manly behaviour (boys will be boys tee hee tinkly laff) is debatable.

For some, I'm sure that's true baldiheid. But others just haven't thought things through yet, and are taking the shortcut of just believing what seems to be the norm.

I initially thought 'what's the harm?' and it was only after a friend explained it to me that I saw exactly what the harm really is...

No. Material reality is what it is: whatever I believe has no effect on it anyway.

weirdly this is the most sensible thing you've said. There is a lot of sexist bullshit in the world, I would support ANYONE to challenge and ignore sexist bullshit rather than let it screw up their life. I may not particularly enjoy drag, I may find some of the jokes sexist but I am absolutely ok with the fact some people like things I don't like. Drag in drag clubs (or gay clubs having a drag night) I'm absolutely fine with.

SOMETIMES sex matters, other times not so much. A TW calling herself Elsa absolutely np. A TW putting out a tik tok aimed at teenage girls telling them have to wash their vagina everyday with soap and water otherwise its just disgusting has crossed the line to actively harmful misogyny and it becomes essential to point out that differences do exist, and how you care for your vagina is one of them.

Totally agree. Live and let live.

But also no participation in women's sports. Just no.

No. A woman is genetically and anatomically female.

In a very few specific circumstances a transwoman is entitled to an intermediate legal status of being treated as if he is a woman. In some circumstances I would be obliged to conform with the law as it is currently understood with resect to fully transitioned male - to - female transsexuals, although I think this is wrong.

I do not consider any self-identifying transwoman to be a woman, or entitled to any equality protections.

Excellent analogy

TRA unintentionally gets the point!

But, of course, mistakes it for some kind of gotcha. 🤦🏻‍♀️

@JustWaking That's an excellent analogy. I'm saving those posts!

When and where is it relevant?
All criminal, civil, administrative and regulatory matters under law, particularly employment law.

Where is it not relevant?
All speech, and personal and interactional matters outside the law.

In contentious cases, there is some rhetorical and practical reason to suggest only women should decide the matter.

They don't have a vagina, though, @Thirdsummerofourdiscontent. If (and it is a big 'if', as the vast majority of adult MtF trans women retain their penis and do not get sexual reassignment), they do have 'sexual reassignment surgery' - ie. the creation of a neo-vagina, either from inverted penile and scrotal tissue, or from other tissue such as bowel tissue, this is NOT a vagina. A vagina will self-clean, self-lubricate, and will stay open on its own. It can safely stretch to allow a baby to pass through it, and goes back to its previous size afterwards. A neo-vagina, on the other hand, may have hair that grows and collects in it, requires regular cleaning to prevent the build up of smegma and other yuckiness, and has to be dilated, often daily, in order that it does not close completely and seal up. It could not safely accommodate an object the size of a baby's head, and it does not self lubricate. If made of bowel tissue, it may smell of faeces for a long time, maybe forever.

I would always see a transwoman as a transwoman. I would happily be friends if they were a nice person. I would use preferred name/ pronouns. I don't readily treat men/ women differently in my day to day interactions so would just accept the human in front of me. In a situation where this person faced ridicule or bad treatment I would speak up in support. I'd keep my thoughts to myself about gender identity unless a conversation was initiated by them. Would feel no need to explicitly state "yr a bloke" to their face or be obtuse.

On an individual, human level I would respond in an individual, human way. What does it matter how I internally categorise someone? But no, I see much more nuance than accepting transwomen ARE women. I'm not going to do mental gymnastics and pretend to myself that is the case. On a societal level I agree with the majority of posters here that there needs to be greater clarity between sex and gender and I support the political shift towards the clarification of the EA. I see the need for women's spaces, am passionate about safeguarding and lament the shitshow that is going on with kids/ young people. Doesn't mean I don't feel some compassion for a tiny few folk with gender dysphoria just trying to make their way in life despite me disliking the ideology that underpins in.

The level of compassion and support would depend on how much I liked the individual. I mentally do differentiate between AGPs & fetishists and surgery/ passing obviously comes into it. It's unlikely I would be friends with someone frothing about TERFs.

Interesting to see how many trans supporters say their acceptance is conditional on 'passing' and full SRS surgery.