Would you ever consider a transwoman a woman?

[ZeldaFighter]

If a person had transitioned from male to female early in life and had lived quietly and unobtrusively as a woman for say 20 or 30 years, would you consider offering that person the status of "womanhood"?

Would you go on a girls night in a group with them?

Would you think differently if the person had had gender reassignment surgery?

What if they did actually pass?

What if they had a husband and kids?

This isn't a gotcha and I don't know the answers. I am instinctively annoyed by the taking away of women's things but I am also dismayed by the hurt and harm potentially caused to trans people. I'm trying to decide my own position and wondering if there are compromise positions. Apologies if this has been asked before and thank you for your thoughts.

Or a hotb*tch. Sorry. I'm really sorry. I'm so fucking sorry.

PMSL!

😂

Yes. I know one. She's a woman.

No more than I’d consider a Wolf to be an Aardvark. Human Sex is absolute it cannot be changed.

Please can you define how your friend is a 'woman'.

What is your definition of woman ?

In order to be trans a trans woman must be male. The one thing all women have in common is being female, the rest is personality, so it is hard to understand how you can see a male as being a woman as they lack the one common factor that all women share?

I'd be really grateful if you would explain your view on this.

I think JK Rowling is actually a man. Can you disprove that?

Nope. I can't. I'm not playing the definition game.

She's not really my friend. She's a close friend of my cousin, so she's often at family events. Everyone in our larger circle is accepting and most of the time everyone forgets she's even trans. She passes very well. No one cares. I suggest given that a shot.

@Squanchhouse

But being a woman isn't a definition game, it's based on actual scientific fact.

ah I do enjoy a dose of “my lovely trans friendism”

im wondering which other laws we should base on peoples nice friends. In fact maybe given we all have nice friends we should just get rid of pesky things like legal definitions & laws & let everyone do what they like on the basis most ppl are lovely

Of course the small % of ppl who are violent arseholes may make life hard for the rest of us but you know most ppl are lovely do that’s enough isn’t it?

In every situation?or can you think of an exception at all.

Do you think that every woman and girl should accept this Trans Woman as a woman in:

• prison cells
• rape crisis centres
• domestic abuse refuges
• delivering a smear test
• conducting a strip search on a female
• being given a strip search by a female staff member
• delivering intimate care to a female who has requested only women carers eg bathing, changing sanitary products.
• on a women only psychiatric ward
• on a gynaecology ward in a hospital
• in a communal womens only shower room used by women and girls

This is just a sample of situations where I would not want a male born person to be present. If you cannot say with absolute honesty that you think a Trans Woman is perfectly fine to be in all these situations then you don't believe that TWAW.

So there are no circumstances in which this person might have different status or needs than a natal female?

For eg. if this person was admitted to hospital, would you expect the medics to apply the male or the female range of kidney function values, or the male or female values for blood tests in order to determine the most appropriate course of treatment? Would you expect them to take into account the potential effects of exogenous estrogen on natal male physiology, or would you prefer them to treat this person as female for all purposes, bearing in mind that might result in death?

If this person presented to A&E with abdominal pain, should the medics wait to perform a pregnancy test before intervening? Do you think they should consider the possibility of testicular torsion (a medical emergency), or should they ignore that for the purposes of differential diagnosis as they would with any other female patient?

FFS, this argument is so daft.

Your post made me think of this

(I never thought I would ever share anything from Matt Walsh, but on the subject of women, he knows absolutely what a woman is.

For the person I have in mind, there is no situation where I wouldn't see her as a woman. She's post op. She'd get passed around like currency in a male prison.

Trans women need gyno services too, so I'm not sure there is a male gynecology ward.

Again, she passes. So if she was walking around naked in a communal locker room, you'd have no idea.

But to be clear, yes I would see her and treat her as a woman in every single one of those scenarios.

You just want her to suffer as much as possible eh? That's too bad, she's a such a kind person.

How terrible that you think that this boils down to a 'definition game'.

It is an irrefutable fact that the one feature of being a woman that connects every woman and girl on the planet is being female.

This common feature does not apply to transwomen, no matter how nice they are.

If we start changing that definition to include nice males then women lose rights to single sex spaces and sports, and sometimes that REALLY matters because nice women and girls lose out and suffer harm as a result of you changing the definition without consent.

Why on earth do you think that it is right to put nice males above nice females? That's just sexism isn't it? It's social conditioning to put males first despite the harm that this WILL cause women and girls no matter how nice your transwoman friend is.

Who is going to stand on the door and have the terribly upsetting conversation with every trans person about whether or not they 'pass'?

To what degree?

Judged by whom?

What about the trans person desperately believing they do when they don't?

And what are we going to do with the female people who cannot use mixed sex spaces regardless of the appearance or feelings of the male person in question?

Because they have rights too.

I don't want anyone to suffer @Squanchhouse but the simple fact is that the rules apply to everyone or no one. So if your friend is allowed in all those places then so is every other TW or every other man who says they are a TW.

Trans women need gyno services too

Why? What female reproductive organs do they possess?

Transwomen don't share anatomy with women. Its just a surgical mock up. There are doctors who deal in male reproductive systems and some doctors who have expertise in supporting people who've removed genitals and or mocked up spmething superficially similar to opposite sex genitals. Of course this person deserves medical care but it is obfuscating to suggest that this is the same care as women need.

Trans women need gyno services too

Please do elaborate and enlighten us all as to exactly which services you refer to?

@Squanchhouse how, if she is not a close friend, do you know what this transwoman looks like with no clothes on?

And no, even if they have had GRS they will not need a smear. They will need healthcare, but as others have pointed out this will be different from that required by women and girls.

No one wants your trans friend to suffer but if we let one male into female spaces we have to let them all in, otherwise there is some kind of 'passing test', and ONLY women and children suffer as a result of that. We are seeing evidence of this almost daily now.

Perhaps breast cancer screening, at higher rates than men in general need it, due to taking cross-sex hormones?

But not smears for cervical cancer, not pregnancy care, not checkups for contraceptives such as the coil, not uterine or ovarian cancer tests, not post-delivery checkups etc. The neovagina does not have the same kind of tissue as vaginas do but is either colon tissue or penile tissue, so it will have different health concerns and gynos are not trained to address those.

Didn't you know that if a boy takes puberty blockers and then switches to artificial female hormones then they literally change sex?

No, me neither.

Trans women need gyno services too

🙄