Scottish Parliament final debate on Gender Recognition Reform today

[ArabellaScott]

At some point after 2pm, in the Big Room (the Chamber).

www.parliament.scot/chamber-and-committees/whats-on-and-watch-live/whats-on#wm

Will be interesting to see how the Amendments go down, if they are all struck down as the ScotGov wishes - www.holyrood.com/news/view,gender-recognition-reform-crunch-vote-after-shona-robison-warns-msps-over-amendments

'the Scottish Conservatives have warned that the debate could lead to a "travesty of democracy" because a 15 minute time limit for each proposal will "shut down" discussion.'

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-64032916

Yes, I wish everyone would stop talking about "changing gender" (because that is literally meaningless) and instead make it clear that a GRC is a state-sanctioned lie about your sex.

This really annoys me too - all the news outlets do it and it's just not accurate. It's about changing legal sex.

The other thing that annoys me is they keep saying that the law makes it easier for trans people to change gender - well, no. It makes it easier for anyone to change their legal sex, trans or not.

I must be missing something as they keep saying f it won't change things because the EA protects single sex spaces however the judge ruled recently that we isn't just biological sex it can include someone with a hex or self Id.

Wasn't that case about who counts as a woman on boards of directors or suchlike - not a 'single sex space' as such?

Phone in right now on Radio Scotland

I came on to mention the phone in, Skyella.
That usual "jar" when a caller is introduced as Sophie and a clearly male voice speaks.
Really tired of hearing about the "toxicity on both sides too".

Debate continues today at 2 pm to 3.15

They'd only got through half of the amendments tabled, so no idea how they're going to fit in proper discussion of everything in one and a quarter hours.

Vote at some point after 3.15pm.

www.parliament.scot/chamber-and-committees/whats-on-and-watch-live/whats-on#wm

No I think it was for all purposes so making it easier to get one absolutely changes things

“in this context, which is the meaning of sex for the purposes of the 2010 Act, 'sex' is not limited to biological or birth sex, but includes those in possession of a GRC obtained in accordance with the 2004 Act stating their acquired gender, and thus their sex.” [ 53]

That was a 10 hour debate yesterday that covered half the amendments. The other half in 1.25 hours? I don't see that happening. Will this mean they have to postpone into the New Year?

I understand this might add some interesting extra angles to the mix.

I understand this might add some interesting extra angles to the mix.

does this mean you have a theory about the unseemly scramble to get this done this year? I’m sooo curious about this

Wanted to add that I listened to quite a lot of the 'debate' yesterday except to me it wasn't a debate it was just some sensible and clearly thought through (and real) concerns being delivered very quietly with the Scottish government just saying 'no' to it all. There was no debate, no discussion on points such as what 'living in the opposite sex' means or how they will know someone is genuine when all that is required is a 'chat' with Fred in the pub to confirm, indeed, you are now the opposite sex.

Bernard, there has been talk about the unholy rush to get this done before Xmas to do with Kate Forbes (Finance Secretary, on maternity, due back in the New Year):

'The Scottish Government has been accused of trying to force through a gender reform law before Christmas to prevent the threat of the SNP Finance Secretary quitting.

Forbes, who is rumoured to be sceptical of the bill, is on maternity leave and expected to resume her Cabinet duties next year.'

www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/snpgreen-government-trying-avoid-kate-28684547

'Kate Forbes, the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and the Economy, who did not take part in the stage one vote because she was on maternity leave, and is until early next year, signed a letter to the Scottish government in 2019 that highlighted problems that could arise if biological men were permitted by law to self-identify as women. Forbes, who has spoken about her Christian faith, said in January that her position on the matter had not changed. She happens to be one of the favourites to be the next SNP leader, although there have long been suggestions she’ll walk away from politics rather than seek the leadership when Sturgeon leaves, as all leaders must in the end. Even “wee Krankie.”

“They want this gender stuff done before Kate comes back,” says a Scottish parliament insider. They had better get a move on.'

reaction.life/nicola-sturgeon-kate-forbes-and-why-the-gender-recognition-row-heralds-decline-for-the-snp/

The letter that Forbes signed will - I presume - be the same one Ash Regan signed. (Who resigned over this Bill.)

Hm. Article from WingsOverScotland (using horrible language, fwiw).

Note at the end says: 'Kate Forbes is on maternity leave but could have chosen to vote remotely, but did not.'

wingsoverscotland.com/the-disgraces-of-scotland/

Some suggestion here that pushing for 'non binary' identities to be recognised is the Greens' next priority.

Fuck climate change, eh?

twitter.com/DuncanHenry78/status/1605328719429898243

Current caller Alice or Alex good call though

twitter.com/MaggieChapman/status/1604890889083621376

This week we will be voting on the #GRR bill. I would have liked to have seen recognition of non-binary people, provisions for under 16s, removal of reflection periods, and more. We have work to do in these areas.

As far as I’m concerned, declining to vote is as good as supporting it. She had the option to make a stand as some of the others with integrity have done. Kate Forbes should be ashamed. By remaining part of the SNP she is giving her name to this bill. I hope she realises that.

Maggie Chapman appears to suggest 6 or 7 year olds should be able to get a GRC?

According to this, UK government could stop it:

ukconstitutionallaw.org/2022/12/21/michael-foran-sex-gender-and-the-scotland-act/

"the Gender Recognition Reform Bill, coupled with the recent decision in For Women Scotland will likely destabilise existing categories and frameworks for the purposes of the reserved matter of equal opportunities and could therefore lead the Secretary of State to issue a s.35 order prohibiting the Presiding Officer from submitting the Bill for Royal Assent. Section 35(1)(b) states that this can be done where the Bill in question contains provisions:

which make modifications of the law as it applies to reserved matters and which the Secretary of State has reasonable grounds to believe would have an adverse effect on the operation of the law as it applies to reserved matters

Although this power has never been used, there is a distinct possibility that the change to the law in this area may satisfy the requirements for issuing a s.35 order, given that equal opportunities is a reserved matter."

Good. Let's hope they step in.

👍thanks Arabella

Kate Forbes is as complicit as the rest of the people who voted for it.

Being on maternity is a cop out and we know it.

She can pretend that it's nothing to do with her whilst keeping her ministerial job.

As bad as the rest of them.

I'm trying to imagine how a 6 year old with a GRC would actually work.

I agree about maternity leave. It's a cop out here.

It's astounding to see so many elected representatives who apparently don't care about their first duty which is to protect the public from harm.

They put it on their Christmas list, of course!

In case you missed it:

twitter.com/shiny02/status/1604846074182524929