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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Scottish Parliament final debate on Gender Recognition Reform today

1000 replies

ArabellaScott · 20/12/2022 10:37

At some point after 2pm, in the Big Room (the Chamber).

www.parliament.scot/chamber-and-committees/whats-on-and-watch-live/whats-on#wm

Will be interesting to see how the Amendments go down, if they are all struck down as the ScotGov wishes - www.holyrood.com/news/view,gender-recognition-reform-crunch-vote-after-shona-robison-warns-msps-over-amendments

'the Scottish Conservatives have warned that the debate could lead to a "travesty of democracy" because a 15 minute time limit for each proposal will "shut down" discussion.'

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-64032916

OP posts:
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scratchedbymycat · 21/12/2022 07:05

Extract of email reply from Lorna Slater MSP. Is she correct? I thought not, according to the ruling by Lady Haldane:

"Furthermore, as the majority of the committee has clarified, the Bill itself will not change any of the protections or definitions set out in the Equality Act 2010, including the ability to exclude trans people from single-sex services where proportionate and appropriate. The committee is further satisfied that the Bill will not change or remove women’s rights, make changes to how toilets and changing rooms operate, redefine what a man or a woman is, nor change or expand trans people’s rights. "

NecessaryScene · 21/12/2022 07:15

Well, the bill won't change the protections or provisions in that's it's not changing what the GRC is. It's just changing how easy it is to get one.

So that statement is technically true in the same way as sending copies of your key on demand to anyone who fills out a web form doesn't change anything versus handing out tens or hundreds of copies more selectively.

You have exactly the same protection - anyone who doesn't have a key can't get in.

You may be less secure, but you have the same "protection", and your door operates the same way.

Not that your "protection" was offering much security in the first place, but clearly your problem is now a lot worse. The upside is that maybe this motivates you to scrap the entire "handing keys out at all" idea.

Waitwhat23 · 21/12/2022 07:21

Excellent thread by Lucy Hunter Blackman - twitter.com/LucyHunterB/status/1605350155015815170?s=20&t=uNdtB4R4RkhD_LJeh7VZVg

OldCrone · 21/12/2022 07:53

Being discussed on R4 now.

Skyellaskerry · 21/12/2022 07:57

Tiggal · 21/12/2022 03:09

I really hope so. As a lifelong labour voter I cannot believe that I am now relying on the Tory party to protect my rights as a woman.

I’m the same.

Rainbowshit · 21/12/2022 08:00

Waitwhat23 · 21/12/2022 07:21

Great thread. Scotgov do look absolutely insane making them sit so late to rush through legislation that is not in any way an emergency. Why? I just don't get it.

NonnyMouse1337 · 21/12/2022 08:02

If the Bill passes with little to no amendments, it strengthens the case for repealing the GRA in the long run.

Look at an example of what has happened under the current GRA with its so called medical gatekeeping.

twitter.com/AlfUpATree/status/1604816759990755329

OldCrone · 21/12/2022 08:06

SNP MSP just said on R4 that there is no connection between someone getting a GRC and making irreversible changes to their body. Implying that transsexuals and those who want a GRC are two completely separate groups of people.

JacquelinePot · 21/12/2022 08:07

We know this but in which case WHY THE FUCKING THE DOES THE GRA NEED TO EXIST AT ALL?!

Sorry to.shout but ffs!

Repeal now!

TheYummyPatler · 21/12/2022 08:11

JacquelinePot · 21/12/2022 08:07

We know this but in which case WHY THE FUCKING THE DOES THE GRA NEED TO EXIST AT ALL?!

Sorry to.shout but ffs!

Repeal now!

In the debate, the legislation seems
to have been simultaneously presented as mere admin of little consequence and vitally important to enable trans people to exercise their rights and live meaningful lives.

Which one is it Scottish Government? It cannot possibly be both.

The fact is, it’s neither of those things. It’s just a shit show that doesn’t reflect what the people of Scotland actually want.

JacquelinePot · 21/12/2022 08:12

Ah yes, Schrodinger's GRC

Kucingsparkles · 21/12/2022 08:16

I think if you look at the entire issue as being part of a thought-terminating Bundle of Good Beliefs And Special Recitations For Good Souls To Display Their Goodness And Belonging To The Righteous People, it makes some kind of circular sense.

scratchedbymycat · 21/12/2022 08:17

NecessaryScene · 21/12/2022 07:15

Well, the bill won't change the protections or provisions in that's it's not changing what the GRC is. It's just changing how easy it is to get one.

So that statement is technically true in the same way as sending copies of your key on demand to anyone who fills out a web form doesn't change anything versus handing out tens or hundreds of copies more selectively.

You have exactly the same protection - anyone who doesn't have a key can't get in.

You may be less secure, but you have the same "protection", and your door operates the same way.

Not that your "protection" was offering much security in the first place, but clearly your problem is now a lot worse. The upside is that maybe this motivates you to scrap the entire "handing keys out at all" idea.

including the ability to exclude trans people from single-sex services

This is the bit that I thought was false. I thought the recent court ruling meant that a trans person with a GRC could NOT be excluded from single sex services....?

NecessaryScene · 21/12/2022 08:19

Implying that transsexuals and those who want a GRC are two completely separate groups of people.

Not totally disjoint, but yes, the GRC is now for "transgender" people as much as "transsexual".

If you've not seen it from the other thread, check out this interview with the Wi Spa guy, who's very insistent that transsexuals are fake. He's properly transgender because he's only done the legal paperwork without any physical changes.

Nobody knows you’re transgender and you have a penis. What’s the difference? And why do you call Bamby a “supposed” transgender person?

We can go into that, but if she’s surgically [altered] parts of her body, that’s transsexual. I know that’s a controversy in and of itself, but I can explain that.

Are you saying that transitioning either hormonally or physically somehow disqualifies someone from being authentically transgender?

You have to understand gender identity. Everybody’s confusing your internal with your external. All these external people are doing what is being called transitioning. There’s no transition. That’s called deviation. I’m tired of that word, “transitioning.” It’s a fake word that people like Bamby use. The whole point is this is how you are born.

Aside from his trans philosophy, the interview's interesting just to see a how someone with a low-level criminal personality and fairly basic "I know my rights!" attitude gloms on to whatever's offered. Should be compulsory reading for MSPs.

Have you considered just changing clothes in a stall or wearing a bathing suit

It’s not for me to adapt to society at this point. Even if it’s the polite thing to do or you want me to or there’s a controversy or whatever, if nobody else is using a shower curtain or nobody else is using a swimsuit, it’s illegal to try and make me do it. Technically, and from all perspectives, I am female, and everybody agrees with that. We’re all on equal grounds under the law.

Kucingsparkles · 21/12/2022 08:23

NecessaryScene · 21/12/2022 08:19

Implying that transsexuals and those who want a GRC are two completely separate groups of people.

Not totally disjoint, but yes, the GRC is now for "transgender" people as much as "transsexual".

If you've not seen it from the other thread, check out this interview with the Wi Spa guy, who's very insistent that transsexuals are fake. He's properly transgender because he's only done the legal paperwork without any physical changes.

Nobody knows you’re transgender and you have a penis. What’s the difference? And why do you call Bamby a “supposed” transgender person?

We can go into that, but if she’s surgically [altered] parts of her body, that’s transsexual. I know that’s a controversy in and of itself, but I can explain that.

Are you saying that transitioning either hormonally or physically somehow disqualifies someone from being authentically transgender?

You have to understand gender identity. Everybody’s confusing your internal with your external. All these external people are doing what is being called transitioning. There’s no transition. That’s called deviation. I’m tired of that word, “transitioning.” It’s a fake word that people like Bamby use. The whole point is this is how you are born.

Aside from his trans philosophy, the interview's interesting just to see a how someone with a low-level criminal personality and fairly basic "I know my rights!" attitude gloms on to whatever's offered. Should be compulsory reading for MSPs.

Have you considered just changing clothes in a stall or wearing a bathing suit

It’s not for me to adapt to society at this point. Even if it’s the polite thing to do or you want me to or there’s a controversy or whatever, if nobody else is using a shower curtain or nobody else is using a swimsuit, it’s illegal to try and make me do it. Technically, and from all perspectives, I am female, and everybody agrees with that. We’re all on equal grounds under the law.

What a horrific individual! I suppose exactly the kind of individual that ScotParl would say both "never happens" and must also be always affirmed at any price.

ErrolTheDragon · 21/12/2022 08:30

Technically, and from all perspectives, I am female, and everybody agrees with that.

Bloody hell, the delusion...but perhaps a useful idiot in the longer term.

What needs to happen is for legislators to clarify that sex has a clear biological meaning, distinct from 'gender'. And that the only criterion for separate services is sex. There is no rational case for any service, sports etc to be separated by 'gender'.
And we need to push on service providers and sporting bodies etc to use the provisions of the EA. If they want to be inclusive of males, it must no longer be at the expense of women and girls.

ResisterRex · 21/12/2022 08:30

NonnyMouse1337 · 21/12/2022 08:02

If the Bill passes with little to no amendments, it strengthens the case for repealing the GRA in the long run.

Look at an example of what has happened under the current GRA with its so called medical gatekeeping.

twitter.com/AlfUpATree/status/1604816759990755329

Very interesting. Not least because it highlights s22, which says:

"The Secretary of State may by order make provision prescribing circumstances in which the disclosure of protected information is not to constitute an offence under this section"

This is something Westminster should consider, I've always thought. Make none of it an offence.

But ultimately, repeal the GRA. No one should be allowed to falsify public records. And we don't need the Act any longer.

Ramblingnamechanger · 21/12/2022 08:32

Apparently we should be reassured that there is no need to change your body in any way to get a GRC. I am not reassured for those people who believe that cosmetic surgery/ hormones can make a man a woman. Even more intact males parading about where they shouldn’t be. Incredible double think. Perhaps now the bill without the amendments needed will be seen as just too gross to vote for. Not holding out much hope though.

ErrolTheDragon · 21/12/2022 08:34

Seems an appropriate point to add this for anyone who's not seen it

Repeal the GRA www.mumsnet.com/Talk/petitions_noticeboard/4688427-repeal-the-gra

The other petition is now over 50k

www.mumsnet.com/talk/petitions_noticeboard/4668426-petition-update-the-equality-act-to-make-clear-the-characteristic-sex-is-biological-sex

NecessaryScene · 21/12/2022 08:38

This is the bit that I thought was false. I thought the recent court ruling meant that a trans person with a GRC could NOT be excluded from single sex services....?

And again, this bill doesn't change that. She's being very technical in her wording. Your ability to exclude a people with a GRC does not change. (Whether or not you have that ability, and if it's still under legal dispute).

The only thing changing is how easy it is to get a GRC.

InterestingUsernameTBC · 21/12/2022 08:41

What needs to happen is for legislators to clarify that sex has a clear biological meaning, distinct from 'gender'. And that the only criterion for separate services is sex. There is no rational case for any service, sports etc to be separated by 'gender'.

But a GRC changes your sex on your birth certificate so how do you prove who is the eligible sex for a single sex service?

Calmdown14 · 21/12/2022 08:42

So thinking about it, I meet all the criteria to become a man under this

I have a male name, I've only worn walking gear for the last 12 weeks (cos high heels are dead handy in three inches of ice!) So I dress in a manly way.

I had a chat with my neighbour about never having had my nails done and not wearing makeup up so I've discussed my feelings with 'someone'.

So that's me all sorted right? And I can tell peri menopause and my high risk of breast cancer that I no longer recognise them and therefore the NHS won't be needed to treat me..... obviously.

ResisterRex · 21/12/2022 08:43

Posting here also. Scottish Daily Mail:

twitter.com/pamgosalmsp/status/1605474988907065346?s=46&t=O4CEHA2WrvcUg11gS02ogQ

"THE SHAMING OF HOLYROOD"

HipTightOnions · 21/12/2022 08:51

But a GRC changes your sex on your birth certificate so how do you prove who is the eligible sex for a single sex service?

Yes, I wish everyone would stop talking about "changing gender" (because that is literally meaningless) and instead make it clear that a GRC is a state-sanctioned lie about your sex.

cosmiccosmos · 21/12/2022 08:55

I really cannot believe what is happening in Scotland. I am going to be interested to see what Westminster do. I don't trust the Conservatives with this at all.

I must be missing something as they keep saying f it won't change things because the EA protects single sex spaces however the judge ruled recently that we isn't just biological sex it can include someone with a hex or self Id. So this act will change this because the law in Scotland says they can be whatever sex they want?

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