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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Scottish Parliament final debate on Gender Recognition Reform today

1000 replies

ArabellaScott · 20/12/2022 10:37

At some point after 2pm, in the Big Room (the Chamber).

www.parliament.scot/chamber-and-committees/whats-on-and-watch-live/whats-on#wm

Will be interesting to see how the Amendments go down, if they are all struck down as the ScotGov wishes - www.holyrood.com/news/view,gender-recognition-reform-crunch-vote-after-shona-robison-warns-msps-over-amendments

'the Scottish Conservatives have warned that the debate could lead to a "travesty of democracy" because a 15 minute time limit for each proposal will "shut down" discussion.'

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-64032916

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Waitwhat23 · 21/12/2022 10:28

I do wonder what will happen when it gets to 3.15pm and there are still loads of amendments to get through. Will it be rolled over into tomorrow and Friday? Or will someone sensible say 'look, clearly we didn't allocate enough time to this. Let's reschedule for after the Christmas recess'.

I personally suspect that it'll get to the time scheduled for the vote and the SNP and Greens will sit with their fingers in their ears, chanting 'vote NOW, vote NOW!' like petulant children.

Whereareyourshoes · 21/12/2022 10:36

Oh don’t forget the Lib Dems have been pushing hard for this too.

ArabellaScott · 21/12/2022 10:43

Waitwhat23 · 21/12/2022 10:28

I do wonder what will happen when it gets to 3.15pm and there are still loads of amendments to get through. Will it be rolled over into tomorrow and Friday? Or will someone sensible say 'look, clearly we didn't allocate enough time to this. Let's reschedule for after the Christmas recess'.

I personally suspect that it'll get to the time scheduled for the vote and the SNP and Greens will sit with their fingers in their ears, chanting 'vote NOW, vote NOW!' like petulant children.

Yep. I expect they'll just sweep the board, fuck all remaining amendments and vote to push the button, anyway.

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Waitwhat23 · 21/12/2022 10:48

The debate times have been changed - it will now start at 1.15pm instead of 2pm. Anyone who is going to the rally, the start time is now 12.45pm instead of 1pm -

twitter.com/ForWomenScot/status/1605514132920209408?s=20&t=CjcJ_KbOwO-5umf5r4pnXw

Kucingsparkles · 21/12/2022 10:51

ArabellaScott · 21/12/2022 10:24

That is hilarious!

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 21/12/2022 10:56

Filling in the Scottish Government consultation for self ID was the very first bit of activism I did around this.

so many people have pointed out the flaws for so long. I can’t believe none of it matters.

Calmdown14 · 21/12/2022 10:57

Last night my five and a half year old went to bed with the words 'mum, when I grow up can I be a puppy?'.

So Maggie Chapman, will you be fighting for her rights for self ID as a dog as she's just a few months away from understanding who she really is

Abccde · 21/12/2022 10:59

My boy always wanted to marry me.

Surely it's denying his human rights to no allow him to marry his mummy at 5 years old?

BlackForestCake · 21/12/2022 11:06

ArabellaScott · 21/12/2022 10:07

Hm. Article from WingsOverScotland (using horrible language, fwiw).

Note at the end says: 'Kate Forbes is on maternity leave but could have chosen to vote remotely, but did not.'

wingsoverscotland.com/the-disgraces-of-scotland/

I think this is bait to try to get one of them to sue him.

TheBiologyStupid · 21/12/2022 11:06

NecessaryScene · 21/12/2022 07:15

Well, the bill won't change the protections or provisions in that's it's not changing what the GRC is. It's just changing how easy it is to get one.

So that statement is technically true in the same way as sending copies of your key on demand to anyone who fills out a web form doesn't change anything versus handing out tens or hundreds of copies more selectively.

You have exactly the same protection - anyone who doesn't have a key can't get in.

You may be less secure, but you have the same "protection", and your door operates the same way.

Not that your "protection" was offering much security in the first place, but clearly your problem is now a lot worse. The upside is that maybe this motivates you to scrap the entire "handing keys out at all" idea.

Thanks, Necessary - I've come across that analogy before, but never seen it expressed so powerfully and clearly.

Whatthechicken · 21/12/2022 11:10

I think we may see some emboldened/antagonistic behaviour if/when this passes at events or within single sex spaces.

DdraigGoch · 21/12/2022 11:13

ArabellaScott · 20/12/2022 16:23

Extendig GRC to 16/17 yos brings into line with international law.

YP can get married, join army, and vote. We trust them to make big life decisions. I don't see why this si different.

Ah yes, you can join the army, but only with parental consent and you can't be sent to war.

You can get married in Scotland, it's true, but south of the border you again need parental consent. I suspect that there are probably a few who'd like that law changed anyway to make it more restrictive.

And yes, the SNP has extended the franchise to children, presumably because their policies are getting so crazy that they can't rely upon enough grown adults to vote for them.

Meanwhile you cannot buy alcohol or tobacco until you're 18. I wonder what Maggie Chapman thinks about that. I've got a funny feeling that she's one of the ones in favour of raising the smoking age. Double standards?

RhannionKPSS · 21/12/2022 11:16

Kucingsparkles · 21/12/2022 10:51

That is hilarious!

Auntie Sandra is every sensible woman in Scotland at the moment...

NecessaryScene · 21/12/2022 11:16

Meanwhile you cannot buy alcohol or tobacco until you're 18. I wonder what Maggie Chapman thinks about that. I've got a funny feeling that she's one of the ones in favour of raising the smoking age. Double standards?

The set of "progressive" policies is getting quite weird. Wondering if she's on-board with all the ever-easier and lower-age-limits for euthanasia in Canada.

Won't be long before a youth can't buy cigarettes due to the health risk, but can request termination...

DaughterOfPsychiatrist · 21/12/2022 11:31

Knowing what we know now re: brain maturity it would make far more sense to raise everything to 18, rather than lower this to 16.

Military can just make the 16-18 bit officially military-focussed education/apprenticeship.

Most countries don’t allow 16 year old sign ups, 18 is the usual and UK is a massive outlier.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_enlistment_age_by_country

BlessedKali · 21/12/2022 11:35

My 2 and a half year was talking to me the other day, working out life, and she said 'one day I will be a mummy and (brother) will be a daddy. I will have boobies'. Yes, I told her. I could see she was peicing together the concept of sex. Then I shuddered to think at that point idiotic parents who think they are taking some moral high ground might confuse their child and tell them 'well actually you could be a daddy too.'

To watch her put some really important building blocks of life comprehension together, and to think that parents are put there undermining this fundamental sense of reality is really fucking scary.

To think in a few years I could legally change her sex and totally fucking confuse her is outright child abuse.

ArabellaScott · 21/12/2022 11:37

TheBiologyStupid · 21/12/2022 11:06

Thanks, Necessary - I've come across that analogy before, but never seen it expressed so powerfully and clearly.

Yes, very clear description of the issue. I might nick it, Necessary.

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Datun · 21/12/2022 11:49

Sturgeon must be assuming that any problems will be few and far between. She can't possibly be doing this imagining that within a few weeks or months, the papers will be full of all the boundary violations that we know some of these men are looking forward to.

Largely, presumably, because there is no data being collected. But that won't stop newspapers printing stories.

I can't imagine her pushing this through so desperately whilst inwardly quaking that it's going to bite her on the arse in a very short time.

HopRockers · 21/12/2022 11:52

Is anyone up on Holyrood procedure? I thought they had to give time for amendments to be debated & amendments had to be done before the bill could be voted on?
the time line is bonkers

TheBiologyStupid · 21/12/2022 11:56

RhannionKPSS · 21/12/2022 11:16

Auntie Sandra is every sensible woman in Scotland at the moment...

"It's figurative violence!" - brilliant.

waterwitch · 21/12/2022 12:06

Still pondering the possibility of reversing GRC.

If the law states that, having obtained a GRC you must live as your acquired sex (whatever the hell that means, but …). To reverse that you need to go through the same process, including living as your new (original) sex for 3 months. But legally, you cannot do that?

is that correct?

Of course, the SNP etc might just be assuming that anyone in this situation would just ignore the law. This seems like an unlikely position for legislators to take, but in this case……?

ArabellaScott · 21/12/2022 12:06

HopRockers · 21/12/2022 11:52

Is anyone up on Holyrood procedure? I thought they had to give time for amendments to be debated & amendments had to be done before the bill could be voted on?
the time line is bonkers

www.parliament.scot/about/how-parliament-works/parliament-rules-and-guidance/guidance-on-public-bills/part-4

Extending time limits in a timetabling motion

4.113 Rule 9.8.4A allows departure from deadlines set out in the timetabling motion under certain circumstances. However, using that Rule does not in itself lead to more parliamentary time being spent on Stage 3 overall. Its purpose is to allow the reallocation of the total time allotted at Stage 3 so as to give the Presiding Officer greater flexibility to manage the debate than the timetable would otherwise allow. So, any extra time used for debate on any grouping must be compensated for either in debates on subsequent groupings or in the debate on whether to pass the Bill, or in both.

4.114 However, where it is considered that more debating time on amendments is needed overall at Stage 3, Rule 9.8.5A may be invoked. This Rule applies at any time during Stage 3 proceedings subject to a timetabling motion (i.e. during the debate on amendments, but not during the debate on whether to pass the Bill). It permits any member present to seek to move a motion without notice proposing that the next time limit to arise be extended by such amount of time (which cannot exceed 30 minutes) as the member specifies. Such a motion, which cannot be debated or amended, may only be taken with the agreement of the Presiding Officer. Any number of such motions may be sought and moved, but the total amount of time by which a Stage 3 may be extended may not exceed 30 minutes. Additionally, where a motion to extend a particular time limit has been disagreed to, no further motion to extend that time limit may be moved.

4.115 While it is open to any member to seek to invoke Rule 9.8.5A at any time during timetabled Stage 3 proceedings, the Presiding Officer may be minded to refuse a motion moved early in those proceedings, on the ground that it might yet be possible to overcome apparent timetabling problems by use of Rule 9.8.4A. If the Presiding Officer refuses a motion this would not stop a member from seeking to move another one later.
Effect of agreeing to a motion to extend the time limits in a timetabling motion

4.116 The effect of a motion under Rule 9.8.5A being agreed to is that the next deadline is moved forward by whatever amount of time the motion specified, as are any subsequent deadlines in the timetabling motion. Any previous statement from the Presiding Officer under Rule 9.8.4A that a particular deadline is being departed from for a particular amount of time is superseded by the agreement to the motion.

4.117 Agreement to a motion under Rule 9.8.5A has no automatic effect on any subsequent deadlines in the daily business list. This means (assuming that the debate on the motion to pass the Bill immediately follows the debate on amendments), that any time gained in debating amendments is lost in the debate on passing the Bill. Rule 9.8.5B, however, empowers the Presiding Officer to make such alterations to the daily business list, including altering the time of Decision Time, as are considered necessary or appropriate as a consequence of a motion under Rule 9.8.5A being agreed to. In practice, the Presiding Officer is likely to move all remaining deadlines in the daily business list to later in the day, by the same amount of time as was specified in the successful motion under Rule 9.8.5A.

4.118 The wording of Rule 9.8.5B would also allow the Presiding Officer to lengthen the debate on whether to pass the Bill. But the Presiding Officer is only likely to use this discretion sparingly, where it is clear not only that there was insufficient time to debate the amendments, but that the time proposed for the debate on the whole Bill is clearly inadequate too. The Presiding Officer may decide not to use this power if, for instance, moving the deadlines to later in the day would cause significant disruption to members.

4.119 The Presiding Officer is required to notify the Parliament of any changes to the daily business list made by way of Rule 9.8.5B. A clear spoken announcement would constitute sufficient notification under the rule. Before advising the Presiding Officer about use of this Rule, the clerks would normally consult parties’ representatives on the Parliamentary Bureau.

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ArabellaScott · 21/12/2022 12:07

Sorry, massive wall of text.

tl;dr: I think it's up to the Presiding Officer.

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BlackForestCake · 21/12/2022 12:13

Who is one of Stalin’s, sorry, Sturgeon’s hatchet people.

filphone · 21/12/2022 12:16

I've been watching the archived streams of the debate and I can't do it

It's insane how all safeguarding and transparency is just been thrown out the window for a "minority"

If the GRA cannot be repealed It has to become a public list that people can search schools, businesses and possible victims need to know who it is there dealing with

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