Allison Bailey v Stonewall - Employment Tribunal hearing Thread 5

[ickky]

The Tribunal started on 25th April at 10am. If you would like to view online you need to send a request for access as early as possible.

Send an email to

[email protected]

The subject heading of the email request should read

“MEDIA OR PUBLIC ACCESS REQUEST – Case number 2202172/2020 - Ms A Bailey – 25th April 2022.

Then ask for the pin for the online access.

You will be contacted with instructions on how to observe the hearing.

When joining the live tribunal please choose a non inflammatory/offensive name, everyone can see it in the chat - This is a court room, please behave accordingly.

The court chat function is there for official court purposes, not for observers, please don't use it unless you have a technical issue.

On the first page underneath where you put your screen name, select the video and mic that are not crossed out (top option), this is the courts vid and mic.
On the next page select NONE on the drop down windows for vid and mic, these are your own video and mic.

You must be muted so as to not disturb the hearing.

There is also live tweeting from

twitter.com/tribunaltweets

Abbreviations:
AB: Allison Bailey, claimant
BC: Ben Cooper QC, barrister for AB
SW = Stonewall Equality Limited (respondent 1)
IO = Ijeoma Omambala QC, senior counsel - barrister for SW
RW = Robin White junior counsel to SW - assisting IO
GC = Garden Court Chambers Limited (respondent 2) (GCC would be a better abbreviation)
AH = Andrew Hochhauser QC, senior counsel - barrister for GC
JR = Jane Russell junior counsel to GC - assisting AH
RM= Rajiv Menon QC & SH = Stephanie Harrison QC (jointly respondent 3 along with all members of GC except AB)
EJ = Employment Judge Goodman hearing the case
Panel = any one of the three panel members (EJ and two lay members)

Thread 1 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4529887-Allison-Bailey-v-Stonewall-Employment-Tribunal-hearing?

Thread 2 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4542466-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-2

Thread 3 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4545725-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-3

Thread 4 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4546945-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-4

Allison was asked about her personal views and if I recall correctly said that this didn't mean that what she considered to be acceptable to her should therefore be applied to other women. I don't think it's helpful to use this thread to police what Allison should or shouldn't believe.

Whatever Allison believes is up to her. Let's not let the goady poster derail us. This is about her livelihood and reputation first and foremost and not about spearheading a movement. Support her for doing what's right for her first.

Want to bump this link.

All the women of this thread, please do this!

I agree. If a person doesn’t feel anxiety or fear at the presence of a male in a particular female space, they don’t. They’re entitled to their feelings. AB isn’t saying ‘and therefore TW should be in female spaces’; she’s saying she wouldn’t personally object in a bathroom to a clearly ‘transitioning’ male being present. On a policy level (what the law should look like) the answer might be very different, and in terms of the EA2010, AB knows the law on excluding transwomen (proportionate and in pursuit of a legitimate aim).

I don't think it's helpful to use this thread to police what Allison should or shouldn't believe

Yes, that way lies madness. It is what has got us to where we are now.

Everyone is free to think and believe what they do, no one is free to force their opinions and ideologies on others.

Does Allison believe that the trutrans should be welcome in women's spaces?

What are the trutrans?

Don’t feed derailers, please.

Ah ok, thank you, I should have guessed really as the headline was surprising.
Thank you to everyone who is watching the proceedings and updating this thread, it's really helpful.

I didn’t say anybody including Allison was not entitled to their opinion.

It was impossible in the context, but I really, really wanted Allison to ask AH to define what he meant by "transwoman" and "man" and the difference between them...

I was wondering that too.

My understanding is they are what used to be called transsexuals, who've had surgery.

I suppose if AH repeats his question, ‘is a man reduced to a beard?’ she might answer, ‘no, it’s about chromosomes’ and see what AH says. He knows the legal definition as well as the next barrister.

And he’s seen one of SW’s representatives crash and burn over it, and probably feeling relieved KM has now departed and is not his client.

Thank you for the reminder about the Scottish consultation closing on Monday. Done now.

As I understand it, "trutrans" means someone whose trans-ness comes from having gender dysphoria. These people might or might not seek to have gender reassignment surgery, there are good reasons not to do this. "Trutrans" is in contrast to people who are trans because it's their identity and they don't actually need to have gender dysphoria.

Whatever the outcome, it is indeed great to see this diversity particularly in the legal profession.

I thought Allison did well actually in making clear that whilst she might not object to a man in a woman's bathroom (for example) it wasn't for her to give away other women's rights (to single sex spaces).

The whole idea it's down to individuals when some individuals are too vulnerable or unable to assert their boundaries (children, for example) - and in shared spaces there could be 15 people all with 15 different boundaries- this is why we need laws.

Thanks for this - I have completed

Sorry as I know this has been gone through loads before- am trying to join this mornings hearing. Is anyone in? I didn’t get the mic and video options outlined in the OP. just says waiting for host to join?

Just bumping. So important, please complete if you can.

That sounds fine. It goes live at 10 am. The same voice says "welcome to the conference". I say it along with the voice every day and pray I'm still muted 😂

Please let's not get into discussions that are pure Twitter bait.

starting now - chat room for technical issues only! Not for commenting on the hearing.