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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Schoolgirls rejecting mixed toilets over boys’ bad behaviour - Times Scotland

164 replies

Igneococcus · 26/11/2021 06:39

In the "no shit Sherlock" section:

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/7f12e196-4e3c-11ec-9bc6-5abf98655bc4?shareToken=8750246678967bdd6accb8b86d6f553f

OP posts:
theemperorhasnoclothes · 26/11/2021 10:52

One of the main things that charities do to enable girls to access education in developing countries is install single sex toilets. It's well known this is a prerequisite for girls attending school.

Biology isn't any different just because we're supposedly a 'developed' country (hollow laugh).

I think mixed sex toilets directly breach Human Rights law - children have the human right to access education. Girls can't access education during their period (men don't seem to realise this can be a quarter of their lives, potentially) if they're mixed sex.

As well as the rest of the time for safety and dignity, but especially during their periods for basic hygiene.

And girls that aren't using the toilet all day aren't able to engage with education either.

Move over the Taliban, this is 2021 Scotland.

theemperorhasnoclothes · 26/11/2021 10:57

Also, this from the article linked above is just insane

"Opponents have raised concerns that women and children are more likely to be harassed and sexually assaulted in them compared to sex-segregated facilities.

But advocates argue that they eliminate confusion from members of the LGBTI (lesbian, bisexual, trans and or intersex communities) over going to the ‘wrong toilet’."

Oh well, who gives a fuck about girls safety, rape and sexual assault as long as the tiny, tiny LGBTQ community is less confused about which toilet to use. That seems a reasonable trade off?

Third spaces would solve confusion.

Unless of course the aim is really to exclude girls from education and /or increase the number of girls who are sexually assaulted. I'm assuming this is really what the advocates of mixed sex toilets want. If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck...

Artichokeleaves · 26/11/2021 11:02

Gosh, I wonder why no one foresaw all these issues?

Well partly because they had their fingers in their ears screaming lalalalala as they chased their political hobby horse.

The obvious bloody answer is to add some mixed sex options to male and female ones, and be very clear that the choice is birth sex OR mixed sex space. Everyone's needs met. Equally.

Whatwouldscullydo · 26/11/2021 11:02

Third spaces would solve confusion

I actually think third spaces have no place in.schools.

Adults need to apply boundaries as the children haven't learnt to yet.

Everyone has a sex. Regardless of identity trans boys and non binary females still face the same.risks from boys/males and need the set up for their biological needs as girls.

By having this third mixed sex space we are placing those females at risk. They need protecting from themselves tbh

TarasCrazyTiara · 26/11/2021 11:08

Hardly surprising. Actually pretty worrying especially at rougher secondary schools given some of the shit some boys get up to in there. Fuck knows what pigs some would act like if a girl or two entered alone.

RedCarpetRebellion · 26/11/2021 11:12

@theemperorhasnoclothes

Also, this from the article linked above is just insane

"Opponents have raised concerns that women and children are more likely to be harassed and sexually assaulted in them compared to sex-segregated facilities.

But advocates argue that they eliminate confusion from members of the LGBTI (lesbian, bisexual, trans and or intersex communities) over going to the ‘wrong toilet’."

Oh well, who gives a fuck about girls safety, rape and sexual assault as long as the tiny, tiny LGBTQ community is less confused about which toilet to use. That seems a reasonable trade off?

Third spaces would solve confusion.

Unless of course the aim is really to exclude girls from education and /or increase the number of girls who are sexually assaulted. I'm assuming this is really what the advocates of mixed sex toilets want. If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck...

Lesbian and bisexual women know fine well which toilet to use and why.

Gay and bisexual men know which toilet to use and why they shouldn’t use the men’s.

The article should be challenged.

foxychox · 26/11/2021 11:21

I have sent my older DD to an all girls school to avoid this sort of crap, hoping that younger DD gets in too. Why do these local authorities think so little of girls?

RedCarpetRebellion · 26/11/2021 11:34

@foxychox

I have sent my older DD to an all girls school to avoid this sort of crap, hoping that younger DD gets in too. Why do these local authorities think so little of girls?
Silly question.

Because everyone thinks so little of girls.

We FEEL like those involved in any safeguarding role/in educating children should value them. It’s unthinkable to consider they don’t. But the reality is teachers/local authorities are no different to the rest of the world. A small % will value girls like we do, a small % will be active predators seeking access to girls, most will be the usual turn-a-blind-eye misogynists.

The latter group are the largest and the most insidious imho. They all say they value girls but their actions show otherwise. Most of them even believe they value girls, because they can’t see their own internalised misogyny in their actions. And they won’t see it, if they faced it they’d have to face they treat themselves that way, or in the case of men, that they treat women they claim to love that way.

The cognitive dissonance is huge.

RedCarpetRebellion · 26/11/2021 11:35

Post at 11.12 I meant gay and bisexual men know why they shouldn’t use the women’s toilets.

The typo that’s there detracts from meaning. Sorry I didn’t notice it earlier.

LadyDanburysHat · 26/11/2021 11:42

As a parent with a child at one of the new schools to be built, and a daughter starting high school in 2 years, this is absolutely something I am willing to go into battle over.

It has already been proven to not work in 2 school in the Borders, so why are they going to to do it in the new schools.

Perhaps ask the children, and by that I mean all of them and not bend the to tiny minority of kids who want this, as they don't feel they fit into either category.

LadyDanburysHat · 26/11/2021 11:45

I will also add that my 14 year old DS does not want to share toilets with girls, and has said he would rather not go.

There has also been anecdotal evidence that at Kelso high school the kids decided amongst themselves and have essentially made the toilets single sex.

RedCarpetRebellion · 26/11/2021 11:49

@LadyDanburysHat

As a parent with a child at one of the new schools to be built, and a daughter starting high school in 2 years, this is absolutely something I am willing to go into battle over.

It has already been proven to not work in 2 school in the Borders, so why are they going to to do it in the new schools.

Perhaps ask the children, and by that I mean all of them and not bend the to tiny minority of kids who want this, as they don't feel they fit into either category.

I think a lot of kids might say they are ok with this though.

Many have been through years of brainwashing about this, from social media, MSM, peers, families and especially from schools. Many might not think past #bekind and envision the consequences. That’s a significant part of why children legally cannot consent to sex, because regardless of what they think they want or are ok with, they cannot envision consequences. That part of the human brain doesn’t develop until older.

Children should not be put in a position to consent to their rights, safety, dignity and privacy being given away.

Grown ups need to be the grown ups. Those trained in safeguarding need to follow good safeguarding practices and policies should follow laws. And the buildings regulation act make it clear schools toilets must be single sex and the equality act makes that clear also.

Teachers don’t get to outsource their responsibilities to children.

GrrrlPwr · 26/11/2021 11:49

Good on the kids at Kelso high school! Very sensible

MsGoodenough · 26/11/2021 11:50

I think parents have successfully fought this at a school in the Highlands? Ridiculous that this battle has to be fought school by school.

RedCarpetRebellion · 26/11/2021 11:54

@MsGoodenough

I think parents have successfully fought this at a school in the Highlands? Ridiculous that this battle has to be fought school by school.
There is a lot of misogyny in border towns.

There’s also a lot of country people who grow up around farms and race yards and hunts and horses and other animals. They know fine well sex can’t be changed. They know a stallion is a very different beast from a mare, and they know geldings are not transmares.

Far too many kids are brought up too far removed from natural reality.

RedCarpetRebellion · 26/11/2021 12:00

Ahh meant to quote the above post, sorry! Way too tired!

Danikm151 · 26/11/2021 12:00

My college (over ten years ago now) built some new toilets. They were supposedly unisex ( no entrance door but individual cubicles with long doors) but somebody decided that one would have green tiles and the other would have purple....problem solved :)

TarasCrazyTiara · 26/11/2021 12:03

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RedCarpetRebellion · 26/11/2021 12:13

@TarasCrazyTiara

I’m saying there’s there’s plenty of misogyny in the borders, just because this schools kids doesn’t mean that’s less present there (I lived it, I grew up in several of those towns and schools and they are as misogynistic as anywhere-look at Hawick’s common riding, only men allowed up until fairly recently, the cornet and cornets men all male, thousands of council money spent on ceremonies that are basically men drinking).

There’s a lot of common sense there too, in that we see first hand biology is real growing up around it.

In cities I think it’s generally a different balance, where the misogyny is framed as progressive pro trans.

This border’s school common sense kids reinstating single sex toilets of their own accord doesn’t change there’s the same underlying misogyny there as anywhere. I guess I meant to point that out before saying how great the common sense, reality understanding that comes with growing up around country animals. It wasn’t meant to imply it’s more or less, just that it exists there the same as everywhere, despite plenty who will know hands on that biology is real. I didn’t suggest or imply ‘the sticks’ thoughHmm that’s your bias reading into it. And there a lot of wealth in the borders also, expensive rage yards, country estates, massive farm estates. That you’d assume it’s the sticks is ignorant.

RedCarpetRebellion · 26/11/2021 12:14

*rural hicks not sticks.

RedCarpetRebellion · 26/11/2021 12:16

*race yards.

Fuck I’m tired today.

malloo · 26/11/2021 12:33

I think ideally schools should take a firm and sensible line on this and be clear that sex and gender are two different things. Toilets are divided by sex not gender so you go to the one that matches your sex. And that has nothing to do with your gender identity. Along with this needs to be a strong line in stamping out any bullying of 'trans' or gender non conforming kids. And an environment which encourages mental resilience in all pupils, helping them all to be self confident and proud of who they are, not in need of constant validation. It needs firm leadership.

However, back in the real world where Scot Gov are utterly captured. There has to be male, female, and mixed sex. With the mixed sex ones being designed specifically with safety for girls in mind.

LadyDanburysHat · 26/11/2021 12:44

@malloo

I think ideally schools should take a firm and sensible line on this and be clear that sex and gender are two different things. Toilets are divided by sex not gender so you go to the one that matches your sex. And that has nothing to do with your gender identity. Along with this needs to be a strong line in stamping out any bullying of 'trans' or gender non conforming kids. And an environment which encourages mental resilience in all pupils, helping them all to be self confident and proud of who they are, not in need of constant validation. It needs firm leadership.

However, back in the real world where Scot Gov are utterly captured. There has to be male, female, and mixed sex. With the mixed sex ones being designed specifically with safety for girls in mind.

Completely agree that this is the answer. Toilets by sex.
SinisterBumFacedCat · 26/11/2021 12:45

Christ this really upsets me. The thought of those girls not being able to go to the toilet all day, it’s like a form on torture, and will no doubt cause a high instance of cystitis, UTIs and kidney infections in the short term, not to mention long term implications to their bladder health. Plus the impossibility of having a period under these circumstances. And of course no one seems to have thought to sort out the little shits period shaming and intimidating them because “boys will be boys”. For fucks sake we are going backwards.

dropthevipers · 26/11/2021 12:45

@Fadette

Why is it only The Times and Daily Mail reporting this kind of thing? Do the left wing papers look at it and say "nah, we won't report on this as it goes against our narrative"?
Think its exactly that. When the Guardian is so captured they, in a pitiful display of spite and bile, leave JK Rowling off the list of birthday acknowledgements you know they have really drunk the Kool Aid.