Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Schoolgirls rejecting mixed toilets over boys’ bad behaviour - Times Scotland

164 replies

Igneococcus · 26/11/2021 06:39

In the "no shit Sherlock" section:

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/7f12e196-4e3c-11ec-9bc6-5abf98655bc4?shareToken=8750246678967bdd6accb8b86d6f553f

OP posts:
CheeseMmmm · 27/11/2021 15:30

@TarasCrazyTiara

Lol “clear prejudices”? For pointing out that rural and country areas will generally be less inclined toward supporting trans issues and other progressive issues? That’s just the reality. I actually think you do believe I’m secretly some trans activist or something which is hilarious.
The word used was 'hicks'.
CheeseMmmm · 27/11/2021 15:46

The assertion it's laughable that there would be many trans people in rural areas.

That makes no sense. If it's innate, and fundamental. Why would there be a difference in % trans people in different places?

And while in England cities/ outside cities tend to be blue/ red.

That doesn't make anyone 'hicks'. And I liked the Dolly Parton feel of 'country is country' but you've now extended it worldwide. ?. Rural communities in India, Bolivia, Norway, Afghanistan etc etc are all 'Hicks' and the same?

!!!

CheeseMmmm · 27/11/2021 15:53

And Scotland is very very different politically than England anyway.

Artichokeleaves · 27/11/2021 17:00

[quote TarasCrazyTiara]@Artichokeleaves

I didn’t say that no one outside of cities were feminists as you know, I said that more feminists were likely to be in better off metro areas than in country and rural areas. Not that it was all one way or another. And it’s true.[/quote]
On what evidence?

I don't agree with that at all, it's an assumption. Why would women in country and rural areas be less likely to be feminist? And I note the 'better off' comment too. Rural areas are frequently highly affluent. These are not useful generalisations.

bordermidgebite · 27/11/2021 17:16

I have missed why anyone thinks the rural /urban balance in Scotland is relevant to mixed sex toilets and the impact on girls and their access to education ?

MrsOvertonsWindow · 27/11/2021 17:46

@bordermidgebite

I have missed why anyone thinks the rural /urban balance in Scotland is relevant to mixed sex toilets and the impact on girls and their access to education ?
Indeed. Such a shame that a thread about girls rights to privacy and safety has been derailed into something completely irrelevant to them
AlfonsoTheUnrepentant · 27/11/2021 20:29

Posters on this thread allow the discussion to be derailed which is annoying. This happens all of the time - they could scroll past but don't.

CheeseMmmm · 27/11/2021 20:45

Focus on the derailers.

They tend not to give up.

I agree they're best ignored. But everyone is different when it comes to not feeling compelled to reply.

There's also lurkers to think of.

And everyone's line is different. There's a thread at the moment about the women and girls murdered in such shocking circs they've made national front page news.

Naturally 2 posters joined to talk about male victims of violence.

That is so utterly appalling on threads about VAWG but particularly obscene when thread about specific horrific incidents in the news now.

Lots of posters reacted. How could they not? And not challenging? What does that say to anyone who stumbles across it and decides to read?

And the fact is. If they don't provoke. So it doesn't derail. They will keep going with more until they achieve their aim.

On this thread the first post was ignored.

What happened? Another try. Also responded directly to someone. Really hard to ignore.

Incidentally. Saying oh should ignore. Posters doing it wrong. Posters who you have criticised may well react. I obviously have!

And BOOM! Thread derailed.

So you have both posted off topic, with comments likely to get replies. Could well cause derail. Because you felt compelled on a thread about girls situation in Scotland. To make smug comments about how other Feminist posters are very silly.

Nice one!

CheeseMmmm · 27/11/2021 20:47

Sorry I think it was only the pp who decided to derail to complain about derailing and how superior they are

Not the one before that.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 27/11/2021 21:00

As it's children and schools who are being relentlessly targeted by adult lobbyists, I reckon it would be great if we can have the occasional thread that focuses on what's happening to them in schools - especially girls.

I'm still optimistic that parents are waking up to what's happening and are starting to challenge. We can't leave it up to children to have to stand up to this systematic sexualised bullying. Although the article focused on boys intimidating girls, as BlameItOnTheBlackStar pointed out earlier this is unfair to all of our children, although of girls are (as always) disproportionately at risk
There's only a certain type of man (or boy) insistent on undermining the boundaries of girls. Most teenagers want a bit of privacy from the opposite sex when they're vulnerable.

YNK · 27/11/2021 21:21

@CheeseMmmm

Focus on the derailers.

They tend not to give up.

I agree they're best ignored. But everyone is different when it comes to not feeling compelled to reply.

There's also lurkers to think of.

And everyone's line is different. There's a thread at the moment about the women and girls murdered in such shocking circs they've made national front page news.

Naturally 2 posters joined to talk about male victims of violence.

That is so utterly appalling on threads about VAWG but particularly obscene when thread about specific horrific incidents in the news now.

Lots of posters reacted. How could they not? And not challenging? What does that say to anyone who stumbles across it and decides to read?

And the fact is. If they don't provoke. So it doesn't derail. They will keep going with more until they achieve their aim.

On this thread the first post was ignored.

What happened? Another try. Also responded directly to someone. Really hard to ignore.

Incidentally. Saying oh should ignore. Posters doing it wrong. Posters who you have criticised may well react. I obviously have!

And BOOM! Thread derailed.

So you have both posted off topic, with comments likely to get replies. Could well cause derail. Because you felt compelled on a thread about girls situation in Scotland. To make smug comments about how other Feminist posters are very silly.

Nice one!

Well said Cheese! I can see the pattern all too clearly now.

This is an important discussion about girls and women.

CheeseMmmm · 27/11/2021 21:22

It's really a disturbing situation.

  1. We know that groups have been contacting individual schools widely. We don't know what they have been saying but I have seen posts from staff where happened in own schools saying that included telling schools they could be breaking the law.
  1. Absolutely loads of schools have made changes based on this info. Various types of changes including this scenario where all toilets just made mixed sex. In England this is actually against the law. In Scotland, don't know but would guess they haven't actively changed laws relating to school building regs since devolution can't imagine it was seen as priority. Could be wrong obv.
  1. These changes have usually been made without school thinking hold on let's think for a sec before acting. The issues and risks are so blindingly instantly obvious. How on earth didn't seem to even cross mind? What does that say about their general consideration of students? And especially female students? And/ or the content of the things they are being told by outside orgs?
  1. Once things have been put in place. Money spent policies rewritten etc. It's much harder to reverse them. And some the aspect of not wanting to say got it wrong will come into play. We see a lot of schools saying nope this is fine stfu.
  1. The parents etc finding out done deal. Saying what the hell are you playing at. Are caught on the back foot, and have to fight to get and get back how was in first place. When obviously something like this should have been consulted on from start.
  1. Just thought. Could the info from the orgs say to do it say no need for consultation as law? Could it say that due to transphobes and bigots everywhere consultation will lead to harm to trans children? That if they get complaints after the fact, they will be from regressive elements who want trans children to suffer? Given general approach of this movement pretty much I given I think.
CheeseMmmm · 27/11/2021 21:24

Thanks YNK Smile

UncleTonyinahotpinkbrandbeanie · 27/11/2021 21:27

Seems to me that we need on site protests led by the girls themselves. Those in the affected schools need to organise.

I’m not saying the governance stuff isn’t important but once you actually get the girls protesting outside their school gates etc, it’s amazing how quickly this will get sorted,

CheeseMmmm · 27/11/2021 21:39

I don't think it's realistic for a host of reasons to expect many to do that.

Sadly.

Theeyeballsinthesky · 27/11/2021 21:46

I find it really sad that it should be up to children to protest this. They have been so very badly let down by adults

DdraigGoch · 27/11/2021 23:21

[quote TarasCrazyTiara]@DdraigGoch

Country and rural people are less likely to be feminists than say metro dwellers. I don’t know why that would be surprising to anyone.[/quote]
Citation needed.

RedCarpetRebellion · 28/11/2021 09:54

[quote ISaySteadyOn]@RedCarpetRebellion, unfortunately, the way our borough works I won't know which school she got into until March![/quote]
Can you check the ones that are likely and start addressing it with all of them?

Good luck either way.

RedCarpetRebellion · 28/11/2021 10:00

@2319inprogress

RedCarpetRebellion Your post was perfectly clear me!
Thank you.
RedCarpetRebellion · 28/11/2021 10:06

@Wbeezer

DS3s school has open plan toilets with a girls side and boys side, they are considering making them all gender neutral. DS3 already avoids using them as they are off a corridor, he has IBS and sometimes has to deal with wind and loud gurgling, smells etc. at school. He finds this v embarrassing but would find it excruciating to have to use a cubicle next to a girl. I will be reminding the school of the requirement to provide separate toilets under the equality act.
And the buildings regulation act says toilets in schools must be single sex or the individual cubicles with sinks inside. Some toilets should be this type, for several reasons, but from a risk assessment pov most should be standard single sex type with just partitions etc- if someone slips and falls others will realise, if a boy pushed his way in to a full door single sex type to attack a girl no one would know. Both boys and girls could be uncomfortable about the opposite sex using a toilet after them - girls worry about periods smelling, boys worry about other things like the post about ibs etc. All that personal stuff is less embarrassing with your own sex. And boys can be cruel about periods etc also.
RedCarpetRebellion · 28/11/2021 10:30

[quote TarasCrazyTiara]@Helleofabore

I’m not telling you your out of the touch with majority thinking on trans toilet stuff, which you would know if you read my posts instead of just imagining anyone who disagrees with you in any way is on the other side in your ideological “battle”. That shows very insular thinking on your part.

What I said was conflating trans activists as misogynists who were like old fashioned misogynists (it was someone else who posted talking about them in relation to the country) was absurd and laughable to most people and it was this kind of stuff that was out of touch with the majority (who wouldn’t have a clue what you were talking about).

Who you know from the country is irrelevant, I grew up in the country and know plenty of country people - that is also irrelevant. The reality is that people in the country and rural areas are by and large are more conservative on issues like this than metro areas. I have no idea why you would try to deny it. I’m not “sneering” at them at all, as you have no idea what my actual thoughts on it are other than thinking single sex toilets should stay.[/quote]
I didn’t conflate them.

Misogyny is misogyny, it can be varying types but it’s all the same thing at the end of the day.

You misread, accidentally or deliberately, and ran with offensive comments about ‘rural hicks’. Which would be out of touch when talking about anywhere, but especially the vast differences and variations within ‘rural hicks’ in Scotland especially.

The landscape is dramatically different within many areas of Scotland. There are massively wealthy land owners in some areas, spectacular country estates in some, old style crofts in others, conservation areas in others staffed by highly educated scientists, fishing villages in others, tourist b&bs in others, hiking or skiing resorts in others, locals who never leave in others, celebrities looking to hide away in peace in others, struggling farms in some, massively wealthy farm estates in others, racing yards, hunting yards, cross country estates, small cottages with a pony in a paddock in others, families who sell tiny London flats and move up to buy large family homes in others. And that’s before you look at the towns themselves. Which in the borders alone include some extremes of poverty after mill closures decades ago mixed with some incredible historical heritage in the likes of Kelso and Melrose. Full of a huge mix of people from those who never leave their home town and live for the common ridings to those who are famous writers or artists who run writers retreats. Being working class in Scotland very much comes with the expectation to go to university, to get an education to come home and benefit the community. And Scotland has some exceptional world renowned universities, including number 1 in uk league tables at the moment- St. Andrews.

The idea you would assume ‘rural hicks’ has anything to do with Scottish country life shows you have no idea what you are talking about and are jumping to ignorant conclusions.

What I was saying in the post you jumped on, that others understood just fine, that I further explained to you, was that there’s a level of common sense about biology that comes from growing up around country life and seeing how animals are born. But that this common sense doesn’t change that there’s just as much misogyny in these towns/country as anywhere else.

As other understood that just fine it appears as if you were looking to inflame an argument. And detract from the op.

RedCarpetRebellion · 28/11/2021 10:40

@Whatwouldscullydo

Therefore, given the small size of the transgender community, a few additional mixed sex single entry toilets could be provided , if funds are available. However, this should not be done at the expense of existing single sex provision

But again this raises the question that is never answered , given the safety issues that single entry enclosed cubicles present and its only thr accessible toilet that has the alarm pull, why are trans children not entitled to the same level of safeguarding as other children.

It is not OK to place trans children who still have a sex regardless of how they feel about that in dangerous situations to avoid being a adult and saying NO.

This ^^

Trans and non binary children are every bit as deserving of good safeguarding practice also.

RedCarpetRebellion · 28/11/2021 10:46

Gad sorry for feeding into it.

BlameItOnTheBlackStar · 28/11/2021 10:47

To be fair that was a great post though!

MsGoodenough · 28/11/2021 11:00

6. Just thought. Could the info from the orgs say to do it say no need for consultation as law? Could it say that due to transphobes and bigots everywhere consultation will lead to harm to trans children? That if they get complaints after the fact, they will be from regressive elements who want trans children to suffer? Given general approach of this movement pretty much I given I think

Absolutely this is the mo. On the pshe forums I'm on. SsA and Transgender Trend are immediately dismissed as transphobic. Schools recently got contacted by the new organisation Genspect. Teachers went on the forum to ask if they were 'legit'. It was found they had retweeted SSA and TT and that Graham lineman had written is support of them, ergo they are transphobic and their materials are in the bin.

All thinking seems to have been outsourced to Stonewall. I'm feeling pretty despairing. Parents really are the best hope for change.