Starmer on Marr now

[Jaysmith71]

We must have a tolerent debate.... Trans community are the most marginalised community of all

....and 'Only women have a cervix' is, "Something that should not be said."

Alekto

Hope it works, I'm wrangling with a new tablet!

@Thingybob

Just discussed this with a reasonably intelligent married man, educated to degree level and works at a professional level. His response was "what's a cervix? If he doesn't know how are we supposed to educate children without using the word woman?

I'd like to bet that many men don't know that a cervix is part of the female reproductive system. Fewer will know its function. Quite a lot of women are probably in the same boat. For that reason, I doubt that Starmer's interview will have a wide impact.

On the other hand, there won't be many adults around who don't know what a vagina is, so if he tried to claim that 'men have vaginas too', 90% of viewers would have a tea-keyboard incident.

@Floisme

I think there's a certain amount of grasping at straws going on, I don't say that to be rude; Starmer has clearly picked his side and we're not it. You're not being rude, you are absolutely correct and I am guilty as charged.

I agree, me too. I had hoped, for political reasons if nothing else, there’d be a far more conciliatory response from Starmer today maybe along the lines of something **Cwen so eloquently said - but no . His reference to changing the law is very concerning and he needs to be asked to explain what he means by that in some detail.

I just cannot believe that in a week where we have had queues at petrol stations, energy bills set to rocket, prospect of food shortages etc etc the Sunday news is dominated by Keir Starmer saying that it is wrong to say only women have a cervix and Angela Raynor describing people as scum because of their politics. I’d like some grown ups to take over please.

I have voted Labour all my life. I can clearly remember the feeling of joy when Tony Blair won in 1997, the relief that the tories had finally gone.

And yet here we are. I cannot vote for a party that chooses to act as if half the population are less than human, so that we can't even name ourselves let alone have rights.

The best I can hope for is that the Brexit mess and covid cock up and corruption mean the grownups in the Tory party take back control from the shower of shite currently in charge.
I might not have liked Maggie, but at least her government was halfway competent. Anyone suggesting women could have a penis to Thatcher would have very swiftly been dealt with!

@Cwenthryth

India believes India has a cervix? The mind boggles!

But but…..if India believes India is a woman, and India believes India has a cervix, why does India have a problem with the statement “women have a cervix”?!?!

I'm guessing, and being generous, that India will still need regular checks of that area for cancer in the cells it is comprised of. To call it a literal cervix is quite something though.

And I'm sure India knows there are many trans women who have gone through no such procedure and never will. That's a completely separate issue and she is being extremely disingenuous here by trying to claim all trans women are in her boat.

India Willoughby has previously called themselves a 'cis woman'; presumably because India has had surgery affecting the genito-urinary / secondary sex organs? I think that if the 'neo organs' are made from penile tissue that may have had exposure to GOV - which is common in adults, in the UK - then checks are advised, and sensible. These are not actually cervical smears as such, though - they're HPV tests.

So there's a kind of psychological medico-legal fiction going on there.

@averylongtimeago

I have voted Labour all my life. I can clearly remember the feeling of joy when Tony Blair won in 1997, the relief that the tories had finally gone.

And yet here we are. I cannot vote for a party that chooses to act as if half the population are less than human, so that we can't even name ourselves let alone have rights.

The best I can hope for is that the Brexit mess and covid cock up and corruption mean the grownups in the Tory party take back control from the shower of shite currently in charge.
I might not have liked Maggie, but at least her government was halfway competent. Anyone suggesting women could have a penis to Thatcher would have very swiftly been dealt with!

averylongtimeago

I cannot share your faith in Thatcher who indulged Saville and trusted Peter Morrison with her (failed) leadership campaign in 1990.

Something of a cross post and think you explained it better Spindle!

#cwen4leader

10 votes from me.

I am genuinely sad about this too, have always voted Labour and been a member. I'm at the point of giving up on them which is something I never thought I would say.
Hoping I can vote Green depending on the leadership election outcome. The Tory party are going to use this issue to hammer and ridicule Labour and who can blame them.

#cwen4leader

Under the Electoral College system I've just made up, my two million votes also go to Cwen.

Is Starmer suggesting that everyone should be called for a cervical smeer? I suspect that would slash the efficacy their for rendering it pointless. And more women, sorry people, will die from cervical cancer. How does Starmer round that square? Idiot.

Right - just read the interview, so when asked about 'only women have a cervix he was unequivocal that ' that shouldn't be said and is 'not right' .

But after banging on about being respectful, he was asked about Angela Raynor's statement of ' scum. homophobic, racist, misogynistic Etonian pieces of scum' all he can manage is a weak 'well Angela does things differently from me and I would not have said that'.

The man is weak, weak, weak. Pathetic. Unprincipled. Incoherent in his position. I have no respect for him at all.

One should not say, 'only women have a cervix as that is not right', but calling people scum is a matter of personal preference!

Dear God man, can you not hear yourself?!

Brendan Clarke-Smith MP
@Bren4Bassetlaw6h
Only women have a cervix. There, I said it. It’s not difficult. Women also have a right to women-only spaces. Speaking up in defence of women’s rights doesn’t mean we can’t respect how others wish to live their lives

It shouldn't be difficult, no.

The Labour Party took a stance on this long before the last election and long before stammer was leader. They took exactly the stance a centre left party would be expected to take and the stance logically consistent with left wing ideology. And many feminists knew this and voted Labour anyway.

They will get what they voted for in time I’m sure.

I don’t think the Tories should waste their time fighting against trans rights on behalf of feminists. If the tories fought against this and won I’m sure many feminists would go back to voting Labour, re-subscribe to guardian and sneering at conservatives and their daily mail reading voters as soon as the tories gave them what they wanted. And If the tories fought this and lost they’d only have wasted their time in office fighting a losing battle on behalf of voters who tend to despise them and would never support them on mass.

@Cwenthryth

India believes India has a cervix? The mind boggles!

But but…..if India believes India is a woman, and India believes India has a cervix, why does India have a problem with the statement “women have a cervix”?!?!

Yes, it's difficult to people those plates spinning, isn't it!

And no, India Willoughby doesn't have a cervix, of course.

cervix
/ˈsəːvɪks/
Learn to pronounce
noun
1.
the narrow passage forming the lower end of the uterus.

This is really becoming desperate stuff indeed.

It's also interesting that India thinks getting their cervix checked every few years is 'demeaning'.

*keep not people !

...

@EdgeOfACoin

India Willoughby, as a biological male, does not have a cervix.

Good grief.

I think we may be in "Mr Garrison's Fancy New Vagina" territory here.

They took exactly the stance a centre left party would be expected to take and the stance logically consistent with left wing ideology.

Why is this 'expected' of centre left parties? And why is it logically consistent with left wing ideology? Left wing parties such as the communists tend to be against this.

The present debate around self-identification conflates “sex” and “gender” and fails to understand that challenging the specific discrimination faced by trans people is not served by undermining resistance to the centuries-old oppression of women as a biological sex.

For women, the result is that their collective rights as a group are currently being undermined through the weaponisation of a post-modern identity politics, focused solely on the rights of individuals.

morningstaronline.co.uk/article/women-class-and-gender-%E2%80%93-communist-perspective

India does not have a cervix.

India may have a kind of neo- vaginal vault, but that is not what a cervix is.

Not having a cervix does not by itself mean that you’re not a woman. Christ, I know I bang on about this, but I don’t see why I fucking shouldn’t- I don’t have a cervix either, but I do continue to be a woman nonetheless.

This unscientific nonsense is not helping anyone. Words have meanings. Women’s words are not up for grabs.

@EdgeOfACoin

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

Why on earth was this basic fact of biology deleted?

Interesting deletion of EdgeOfACoin's post. I still have it open on another tab. Nothing but a statement of biological fact.

But I believe India now believes India is a 'ciswoman', so I presume any statement of fact which suggests that this is not true is 'transphobic' and will be deleted. But how can it be transphobia if India is a 'ciswoman'?

India believes India has a cervix? The mind boggles!

The question is: who's cervix is it and where is the rest of them?