Does anyone ever wonder how this will end?

[dyslek]

I can see three scenarios.

1. women lose and we end up living in some nightmarish high tec version of ancient Rome, where woman and children is a sub human resource to be exploited in anyway a man wants at an given moment.
2. the mass hysteria quietly dies down and every kind of pretents this was never a thing (and in fact it was only those nasty feminists making a fuss that caused all this misunderstanding in the first place).
3. due to the sheer insanity of gender idology, society slowly starts to listen to women and the horror of the unfairness wakes everyone up to womans humanity and gender stereotypes and finally totally abandoned and we all live happly ever after.

You haven't provided a source! You've made a claim with no evidence and then demanded others find out for themselves. We have, and we refute your claim. Now, what could you do now to demonstrate that we are wrong? Well, provide your original source and show us how thorough and reliable the data is, of course.

www.transgendertrend.com/the-suicide-myth/

I'm aware that this could be seen as a biased source by TRA's so thought I would highlight the conclusion (below) which talks about how there is a need for caution when repeating suicide statistics, as advised by the Samaritans -

'In conclusion, although the statistics for suicide attempts have been exaggerated, this is a psychologically highly vulnerable population. A young person with mental health problems needs psychotherapeutic support and a young person who is feeling suicidal needs urgent psychiatric care. Much more research is needed into different care pathways for young people with gender dysphoria.

In this clinical area it is especially important to understand the possible underlying causative factors in suicidal ideation and provide appropriate therapeutic treatment, as the alternative (puberty blockers) carries a risk of exacerbating depressive symptoms. Depression is listed as a common or very common adverse effect for the drug Triptorelin (the form of blocker used by the Tavistock).30

Every suicide is a terrible tragedy and we must be extremely careful in any message we send to young people on this subject. The Samaritans guidance31states that we should avoid speculation about any one ‘trigger’ for suicide and that we need to exercise caution in repeating suicide statistics. Transgender Trend would like to see this advice followed more carefully in the case of young people struggling with gender identity issues.'

The stastistics on 'trans' suicides are
a. based on very small samples of self selected responders
b. based on populations that do not translate on to the population you think you are talking about
c. inacuratly interpretet the, very limited data they have

But what a lot more interesting than made up numbers is, why have decided we just must hear your words of wisdom before reading even a small amount of the thread?

@BlueBerrySnek

"Given the existence of detransitioners, that's highly unlikely." *@NonnyMouse1337* The percentage of detransitioners is less than 1%

The percentage may have been 1% when the numbers who transitioned were tiny.

The numbers who transition have gone up by around 4000%. This means that many who previously would not have transitioned are now doing so. The benefits of transition and likelihood of regret may be higher for that cohort. We can't know yet how the figures will work out.

What that was meant to say was 'benefits of transition may be lower and therefore likelihood of regret may be higher'.

@dyslek agreed, the three main surveys mentioned in the link I posted above have significant issues with their methodology, have low numbers of respondents and those respondents self selected.

At some point I do hope all of you see the absurdity of your opinions but I just want to clarify that I am not in any way trying to force my viewpoints on to you, I am simply trying to explain why you may be wrong and why I believe what I do. Of course you don't have to believe anything I say my intention was not to make you angry it was to educate you. Before I leave I'd like to refer you to a channel on youtube called "Jammidodger" I think he may be able to explain to you better why people believe what they do.

Nah.

@BlueBerrySnek are you incapable of explaining and defending your own thought processes without having to resort to telling people to watch YouTube videos by people with names like "Jammidodger"??

You "educate" people by making reasoned arguments and providing evidence to back up any specific claims. Then you listen to people's responses to that, questioning any weaknesses or illogical reasoning, and then respond with further clarifications or thoughts to counter. And so on until an understanding of each other's viewpoints is reached.

I believe it is you who needs educating, BlueBerrySnek. The ideas you adhere to and promote are ideas I see as deeply misogynistic and homophobic, and those are “values” I don’t share and actively reject.

Many women here (myself included) will have watched JammieDodger and are as unimpressed with that person as they are with you.

I know it’s a shock to you but we don’t subscribe to your (misogynistic, homophobic) religion. Not many people outside your echo chamber do.

I would like to see the source for PP's claim of a 1% detransition rate, please.

This Jammidodger?

But! But! I have shiny new ideas! Shiny new ideas GOOD! Surely you want them? How can you not??

How to explain to a True Believer that what they see as these wonderful shiny new ideas, I just see as the same old patriarchal shit wrapped up in shiny paper?

No, I don’t want a bite of your shit sandwich, no matter how many frilly ribbons you’ve put on it. It’s still a shit sandwich.

You "educate" people by making reasoned arguments and providing evidence to back up any specific claims. Then you listen to people's responses to that, questioning any weaknesses or illogical reasoning, and then respond with further clarifications or thoughts to counter. And so on until an understanding of each other's viewpoints is reached.

@AssassinatedBeauty has hit it on the head here.

tbf, I think Blue is probably very young.

@BlueBerrySnek

At some point I do hope all of you see the absurdity of your opinions but I just want to clarify that I am not in any way trying to force my viewpoints on to you, I am simply trying to explain why you may be wrong and why I believe what I do. Of course you don't have to believe anything I say my intention was not to make you angry it was to educate you. Before I leave I'd like to refer you to a channel on youtube called "Jammidodger" I think he may be able to explain to you better why people believe what they do.

What, the opinion that men and women are just humans in different types of body, that men can be pretty, soft carers and women can be logical, brusque leaders and it's only the hangover of a patriarchal society that stops that happening, and the more we do to challenge and reduce the idea of gender boxes the happier and freer everyone including trans people will be?

I don't want to force my viewpoint on you, but if that opinion is absurd to you I pity you.

You "educate" people by making reasoned arguments and providing evidence to back up any specific claims. Then you listen to people's responses to that, questioning any weaknesses or illogical reasoning, and then respond with further clarifications or thoughts to counter. And so on until an understanding of each other's viewpoints is reached.

This should be pinned on the top of every thread...it might save everyone a bit of time!

Before I leave I'd like to refer you to a channel on youtube called "Jammidodger"

I'll pass. What's next? Contrapoints? Riley J Dennis?

How to explain to a True Believer that what they see as these wonderful shiny new ideas, I just see as the same old patriarchal shit wrapped up in shiny paper?

No, I don’t want a bite of your shit sandwich, no matter how many frilly ribbons you’ve put on it. It’s still a shit sandwich.

Word

@BlueBerrySnek

"Given the existence of detransitioners, that's highly unlikely." *@NonnyMouse1337* The percentage of detransitioners is less than 1%

I highly disagree with this.

Firstly, the steady trickle of detransitioners that started a few years ago is growing - they are much more vocal, telling their stories, taking court action. They are everywhere, and this is just the start, there will be many more. It is really irresponsible to ignore them.

Secondly, Marcus Evans who was one of the original Tavistock whistle blowers talks about how he doubts this figure from his work in mental health A&E that spanned decades. I think I trust his credentials.

As well as the credentials of Dr Steensma who mentioned the increased rate of detransitioners in his report which led to the banning of puberty blockers in Finland.

You will have to do better than denying the existence, and importance, of detransitioners.

[quote BlueBerrySnek]@AssassinatedBeauty
The fact that the only thing you can find in my post to discredit is a grammar issue, tells me that I won the argument. If my source is unreliable then please by all means give me a source that says that trans people do not have that high of a suicide rate[/quote]
I believe that Kathleen stock, abigsil shrier and Helen Joyce have all looked into these claims for their investigations into the phenomenon of a hugely increased rate of teenage girls identifying as transgender and seeking treatment.

They all found that suicide ideation is higher after transition than prior. Kind of proves transition is not a very effective cure for body dysphoria. It could be transphobia that causes it..... But more likely, the evidence out of the Tavistock review, from Dr David Bell and Marcus Evans, suggests that it was not appropriate treatment for many patients and they were distraught at what they were left dealing with.

According to Dr Steensma's report, a smaller cohort were utterly dismayed to discover that after all the irreversible treatment they had been through they were not, in fact, after all, the opposite sex.

That is the danger of TWAW/ TMAM, no debate.

BlueBerrySnek can I ask, have YOU looked at the evidence from the Tavistock review? Have you read the Dr steemsma report? What about the work of abigail shrier? Kathleen stock?

If you like YouTube, they have all done videos, easy to search up. Have a look at them, then come back.....

@TalkingtoLangClegintheDark

But! But! I have shiny new ideas! Shiny new ideas GOOD! Surely you want them? How can you not??

How to explain to a True Believer that what they see as these wonderful shiny new ideas, I just see as the same old patriarchal shit wrapped up in shiny paper?

No, I don’t want a bite of your shit sandwich, no matter how many frilly ribbons you’ve put on it. It’s still a shit sandwich.

Ironic, considering your own worldview is just patriarchal gender norms with a feminist dressing.

"Women are physically weaker, any ordinary male can easily beat an extraordinary woman"
"Women are defined by their capacity to give birth"
"It is essential that our society remains segregated by sex."

You believe in things that feminists have historically fought against. Do you really think it's a coincidence your views on trans issues are largely backed by anti-feminist social conservatives?

"Women are physically weaker, any ordinary male can easily beat an extraordinary woman"

How many sporting events do you think women would win if they were all mixed sex?

boysvswomen.com/#/

"It is essential that our society remains segregated by sex."

Do you think prisons should be mixed sex?

Can you post some links to where feminists have argued for sports and prisons to be mixed sex?

Sigh.

Women are physically weaker, any ordinary male can easily beat an extraordinary woman"

Yes to the first statement. It’s an inconvenient fact but nevertheless true. Not exactly to the second statement, but certainly a well trained teenage boy can beat an extraordinary woman. boysvswomen.com/#/

"Women are defined by their capacity to give birth"
No, women are the only sex that gives birth which makes demands on their body and time which males do not face, and therefore mother’s and potential mothers need sex-specific social support to ensure that their reproductive role does not disadvantage them financially and socially.

"It is essential that our society remains segregated by sex."

It is essential that the areas where males as a group are proven to pose a risk to females as a group either physically or due to social advantages retain sex-specific protections for women so that women have access to physical, political, cultural and economic power in their own right.

There, FTFY.