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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Does anyone ever wonder how this will end?

609 replies

dyslek · 12/07/2021 21:22

I can see three scenarios.

  1. women lose and we end up living in some nightmarish high tec version of ancient Rome, where woman and children is a sub human resource to be exploited in anyway a man wants at an given moment.
  2. the mass hysteria quietly dies down and every kind of pretents this was never a thing (and in fact it was only those nasty feminists making a fuss that caused all this misunderstanding in the first place).
  3. due to the sheer insanity of gender idology, society slowly starts to listen to women and the horror of the unfairness wakes everyone up to womans humanity and gender stereotypes and finally totally abandoned and we all live happly ever after.
OP posts:
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Aparallaxia · 14/08/2021 23:52

FieldofgreyCorn A couple of points.

  1. About TG people and %age who have "the operation" or some part of that process vs those who don't.


fairplayforwomen.com/penis/

Thus Planned Parenthood have only two ideas about what "coming out as TG" might mean: telling people your new name, and telling them which pronouns you would like to use. That's it.

www.plannedparenthood.org/learn/gender-identity/transgender/coming-out-trans

  1. It is no use having single cubicles off a shared area. There must be two single-sex areas, plus, if they want and campaign for it, a third area for TG people. Here's why:


www.huffingtonpost.ca/2015/10/06/u-of-t-bathrooms-voyeurism_n_8253970.html

www.northdevongazette.co.uk/news/peeping-tom-left-girl-swimmer-scared-changing-room-7988374

www.bristolpost.co.uk/news/bristol-news/man-arrested-after-women-sexually-810514

Having single-sex changing facilities and restrooms won't protect people from all perverts, of course:

www.womenarehuman.com/male-transgender-person-accused-of-sexually-assaulting-teen-in-walmart-restroom-alicia-gray-nee-sean-ojeda/

But it sure as hell helps. Yes, perverts will perve. But that doesn't mean we should just give up and pull down all the barriers.
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IvyTwines2 · 14/08/2021 11:34

@AnyOldPrion I think most adults have been completely blindsided by the online world. They have put the most extraordinary, unfettered communication tool humankind has ever known in the hands of children as young as 4, and have very little idea of the sort of rabbit holes young people are going down (just look at the reaction to the horrific events this week, media organisations having to explain the concept of 'incel' to listeners). Adult decision makers need to wake up more to the impact of this, and of the way things like porn and fan sites and the threats directed at women online are shaping the way teenagers are coming to think about themselves.

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ItsDinah · 14/08/2021 11:08

How will it end...4. a. Religion vs Queer Theorist flashpoint cases. Over 6 % of the population of England is Muslim. That rises to over 14 % in London. The percentage will increase fairly rapidly. The LBGT friendly Christian churches are in catastrophic decline with a surge in those who are not. b. NHS funding NICE - I understand that NHS will fund genital surgery and mastectomies but not facial feminisation or breast implants.So,there is a limit. At some point,due to the sheer volume of cases, the value of any gender reassignment treatment whatsoever will have to be properly assessed at the moment it's all in the experimental stage. With luck, complaints about waiting lists,will bear fruit. c - the increasing profile of dangerous criminal perverts claiming to be trans will percolate the public consciousness and politicians will be moved to take action. Given there are already 2 prisons in England devoted exclusively to sexual offenders with 20% of all male prisoners in for sexual offences without the sort of public scandal this scale of offending merits ,I fear this last possibility is wishful thinking.

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AnyOldPrion · 14/08/2021 10:06

Gender identity disorder is not classed as a delusion.

The trans lobby have certainly influenced the medical establishment through their lobby group WPATH, which claims to be a group of medical specialists, while actually being led some of the time by known transactivists, including non-medical lobbyists such as S Whittle.

This will be reversed, I believe, when the lawsuits start, but FieldOfGreyCorn is correct at the present moment. Indeed I think this is one of the biggest successes for transactivism, and is one of the aspects of their campaign that has given a level of apparent respectability that makes it so very difficult to refute.

I certainly did not question the treatment for a long time as the NHS appeared to embrace it. Some forward-thinking countries that had embraced it without question initially, have recently begun to backtrack regarding treatment for children, and I think the scandal will eventually escalate to a point that this particular physical treatment for what is likely a mental health disorder will be seen as equivalent to the lobotomy scandal, if not even bigger.

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Fieldofgreycorn · 14/08/2021 09:21

@Jaysmith71

That's the thing about Psychiatry. It accepts that people hear voices and see giant rabbits who ask "Why are you wearing that stupid man-suit?" It acknowledges that anoexics and bulemics see themselves as they do, and that paranoids genuinely think the nurses are trying to kill them.

But in none of these conditions does it suggest these delusions have any objective reality outside the patient's imagination.

Gender identity disorder is not classed as a delusion. They have different aetiologies and it’s not useful to compare them in any way. Delusion is complete detachment from reality. Indulging delusions has very different outcomes from supportive gender transition.
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Fieldofgreycorn · 14/08/2021 09:15

You know that ‘full surgery’ is a massive deal and very rare? If even 20% have had ‘surgery’ that actually generally means breast implants or reductions, nose jobs or face feminisation etc.

Evidence? I used 20% as it’s the figure most often quoted on this forum for the percentage of trans people that have genital surgery.

In this article an endocrinologist at Charing Cross puts it at 60% for genital surgery.
www.theguardian.com/society/2016/jul/10/transgender-clinic-waiting-times-patient-numbers-soar-gender-identity-services

What is your evidence for the numbers?

Are you happy for women’s sports, prisons, changing rooms, domestic violence units to be open to anyone?

No.

It is legal in the U.K. to exclude trans people from sport. Most trans women have not been moved to a female prison. The majority of DV units that I know of are self contained units with individual bathrooms etc - most are these days. Changing rooms could and should have individual cubicles. If someone is going or has been through a gender identity clinic/ treatment then they should be able to use the changing room for their transitioned sex. If it is an open changing room then I think a trans woman without genital surgery should not use that, (the majority of genuine TW wouldn’t want to as they are dysphoric) they should be given a separate private area.

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Jaysmith71 · 14/08/2021 09:13

That's the thing about Psychiatry. It accepts that people hear voices and see giant rabbits who ask "Why are you wearing that stupid man-suit?" It acknowledges that anoexics and bulemics see themselves as they do, and that paranoids genuinely think the nurses are trying to kill them.

But in none of these conditions does it suggest these delusions have any objective reality outside the patient's imagination.

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Fieldofgreycorn · 14/08/2021 08:17

@Wrongsideofhistorymyarse

It’s not all a lie though. Most of the mental health/ psychiatric/ scientific communities believe there is such a thing as gender identity. Gender identity being the sex you identify as. Just as we know we’re human and have a human identity, part of that identity is gendered.

Evidence please?

Royal College of Psychiatrists
www.rcpsych.ac.uk/pdf/PS02_18.pdf

NHS
www.nhs.uk/conditions/gender-dysphoria/

That is evidence of the wide acceptance of the concept. But what evidence do you want?

You’re never going to be able to cut people’s brains open and say ‘yes there is their gender identity and it’s male’. There’s no laboratory test. Same as for depression. How do you know if someone is depressed? You ask them questions and observe their behaviours, pre and post treatment. Same for lots of areas of psychiatry and mental health.
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Ereshkigalangcleg · 12/08/2021 18:38

Again, witness the campaign against Rosie Duffield, for the crime of stating that women's health messages should reference women. Note that the ferocity of the TRA reaction was totally out of proportion to Duffield's actual comments: she said something very mild that the vast majority of the public would agree with, but the TRAs responded as if her views would horrify all decent and right-thinking people and demanded her expulsion from the Labour Party. This is key to their success: to treat even the mildest dissent from their agenda as the gravest of sins, which somehow erases the humanity of a vulnerable minority and literally causes their deaths. Most people don't have the desire or ability to endure such sustained opprobrium, so most people decide to stay well out of it. This is how 'the most intolerant wins', and how a minority of extremists end up imposing their wishes on the majority.

Yes, that's exactly what's happening. Great post.

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Mulletsaremisunderstood · 12/08/2021 17:01

@nepeta

As to how all this will end... I have no idea. I mostly think that we are living during a particular type of social contagion, a bubble similar to earlier ones about Satanic rituals and false memories during the 1990s.

Those bubbles just silently deflate at some point.

But this one has a lot of money to back it and lots and lots of people who wish to be kind and progressive and have not done the deep thinking about the many complex aspects in this particular case. It also doesn't inconvenience men much at all.

So I don't know.

I heard Helen Joyce reference the false memories therapeutic scandal, and said that the main reason it stopped happening was because there was an onslaught of lawsuits, so then the insurance companies in the US stopped providing coverage for that type of therapy.

I think that's what will happen, once those teenage girls grow up and realise that has been done to them they may be very angry and sue. They would definitely have a case for lack of medical ethics, or lack of proper consent.
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Chickenyhead · 12/08/2021 15:10

@donkeyskin great post

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DonkeySkin · 12/08/2021 15:05

Except that according to polls the public don't want to make it easier to get a GRA, they don't support males in women's sports, and their support for males in women's changing rooms and toilets is dependent on whether they have had genital reconstruction surgery.

It's true that most people don't support the radical TRA agenda, but that doesn't mean that it won't succeed.

This article explains it well:

medium.com/incerto/the-most-intolerant-wins-the-dictatorship-of-the-small-minority-3f1f83ce4e15

It suffices for an intransigent minority –a certain type of intransigent minorities – to reach a minutely small level, say three or four percent of the total population, for the entire population to have to submit to their preferences. Further, an optical illusion comes with the dominance of the minority: a naive observer would be under the impression that the choices and preferences are those of the majority.

TRAs are succeeding in large part by being intransigent, and by making it very, very costly to oppose them.

Notice that they NEVER concede that sexual biology might be relevant to anything, ever: they never say, OK, well we want men to be considered women if they say so, but we understand that sports might be a separate issue; or, we want male prisoners to be housed in women's jails if they desire, but we understand that some dangerous men might exploit this, so for safety reasons not all gender identities should be automatically recognised...

Instead, they unswervingly insist that gender identity trumps biology in all contexts, and then smear and persecute anyone who has the temerity to say, 'Hang on a minute...'. They work to destroy people's reputations and get them fired. They accuse them, baselessly, of causing harm and suicide, making the tenor of the debate so ugly that anyone who values his or her peace and sanity decides it's wiser to just mouth a platitude or not say anything at all. And they don't stop, ever. They are ruthless and relentless. Witness their 5-year-plus smear campaign against US journalist Jesse Singal, because he wrote about the ethical issues around giving puberty blockers and cross-sex hormones to children. The TRAs and their libfem goons spread false rumours that Singal was a sexual harrasser of trans people, lies which they continue to amplify today.

They have not managed to destroy Singal's career, but they have injured his reputation in progressive circles and almost certainly made it impossible for him to be published in mainstream leftist outlets. What is the point of such a campaign, against a journalist who is largely supportive of the TRA agenda? It is to damage and demoralise the individual targeted by it, obviously, but it also serves the larger purpose of demonstrating to other leftist journalists what happens if you scrutinise the paediatric transition industry. What bright, young leftist journalist (or even old and grizzled, for that matter) would dare take on the issue of 'trans' kids in the US today?

Again, witness the campaign against Rosie Duffield, for the crime of stating that women's health messages should reference women. Note that the ferocity of the TRA reaction was totally out of proportion to Duffield's actual comments: she said something very mild that the vast majority of the public would agree with, but the TRAs responded as if her views would horrify all decent and right-thinking people and demanded her expulsion from the Labour Party. This is key to their success: to treat even the mildest dissent from their agenda as the gravest of sins, which somehow erases the humanity of a vulnerable minority and literally causes their deaths. Most people don't have the desire or ability to endure such sustained opprobrium, so most people decide to stay well out of it. This is how 'the most intolerant wins', and how a minority of extremists end up imposing their wishes on the majority.

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mollythemeerkat · 12/08/2021 14:25

Most people (IMO) are going to think that those who are medically transitioning under supervision should be supported to live as their acquired sex as much as possible whether m to f or f to m. You don’t think that. It’s a difference of opinion.

Is that what the poster said though?

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StrangeLookingParasite · 12/08/2021 13:45

If 20% have full surgery that’s 24,000 post ops. There’s no evidence that those transitioned after 1989 offend at higher rates.

Except there's no evidence of either of those, and evidence that transition does not alter offending rates - transwomen offend at the same rate as untransitioned men.

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PartyofPun · 12/08/2021 13:25

@Fieldofgreycorn

How did such a huge, monstrous, irrational, indefensible lie take hold of modern, secular society in the late 20th/early 21st century?

It’s not all a lie though. Most of the mental health/ psychiatric/ scientific communities believe there is such a thing as gender identity. Gender identity being the sex you identify as. Just as we know we’re human and have a human identity, part of that identity is gendered.

For most people they feel they are the sex their body is. For a minority they feel they are not, and for some of them there are thought to be a mixture of genetic, biological, psychological, environmental and cultural causes behind that. That best explains what has been observed clinically and from what is known about embryology, mammalian development and cross cultural anthropology. In terms of both what the problems are and the solutions.

Given that we have not been able to change people’s gender identity (in the main) the most humane solution is to support these people to live as what feels to them as the right sex as much as possible. (Easily dismissed as ‘be kind’). Physically, biologically and socially. As much as modern medicine and the legal system can provide.

You view everything through a sex class analysis. Not everyone does. James Barrett estimates there are 120,000 individuals in the U.K. that have made some sort of transition. If 20% have full surgery that’s 24,000 post ops. There’s no evidence that those transitioned after 1989 offend at higher rates. Although if you include the wide ‘trans umbrella’ I’d be surprised if that wasn’t the case as there’s no reason to think male cross dressers etc don’t violently offend at the same rates as other males. (With no altered hormone levels etc).

Most people (IMO) are going to think that those who are medically transitioning under supervision should be supported to live as their acquired sex as much as possible whether m to f or f to m. You don’t think that. It’s a difference of opinion.

The truth lies somewhere between the two extremes and I believe there will be a sensible resolution. But not everyone is going to be happy. Most women and men will be though. The hardline GCs (no one should legally change sex or use some public facilities for their transitioned sex) and fantasist TRAs (anyone’s a woman if they say they are) won’t.

You know that ‘full surgery’ is a massive deal and very rare? If even 20% have had ‘surgery’ that actually generally means breast implants or reductions, nose jobs or face feminisation etc. Transition can just mean wearing clothes.

Are you happy for women’s sports, prisons, changing rooms, domestic violence units to be open to anyone? There are really vulnerable blind women, elderly women, disabled women, young women, religious women, disadvantaged women who will be seriously impacted by this on a daily basis.
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Jaysmith71 · 12/08/2021 13:11

But in order to accept people who are trans, we need a functional definition of trans, and "anyone who says they are" does not meet that requirement.

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HoliHormonalTigerlilly · 12/08/2021 13:07

@BlueberryCheezecake

4) Trans acceptance becomes the norm without any catastrophic consequences and the people who opposed it will be looked back on with the same distaste as those who opposed gay marriage equality and supported Section 28.

Yes silly little women. Caring about their sex based rights. Tsk! 🦄💖🌈🤸🏻‍♀️🤸
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Wrongsideofhistorymyarse · 12/08/2021 12:44

It’s not all a lie though. Most of the mental health/ psychiatric/ scientific communities believe there is such a thing as gender identity. Gender identity being the sex you identify as. Just as we know we’re human and have a human identity, part of that identity is gendered.

Evidence please?

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Fieldofgreycorn · 12/08/2021 12:21

How did such a huge, monstrous, irrational, indefensible lie take hold of modern, secular society in the late 20th/early 21st century?

It’s not all a lie though. Most of the mental health/ psychiatric/ scientific communities believe there is such a thing as gender identity. Gender identity being the sex you identify as. Just as we know we’re human and have a human identity, part of that identity is gendered.

For most people they feel they are the sex their body is. For a minority they feel they are not, and for some of them there are thought to be a mixture of genetic, biological, psychological, environmental and cultural causes behind that. That best explains what has been observed clinically and from what is known about embryology, mammalian development and cross cultural anthropology. In terms of both what the problems are and the solutions.

Given that we have not been able to change people’s gender identity (in the main) the most humane solution is to support these people to live as what feels to them as the right sex as much as possible. (Easily dismissed as ‘be kind’). Physically, biologically and socially. As much as modern medicine and the legal system can provide.

You view everything through a sex class analysis. Not everyone does. James Barrett estimates there are 120,000 individuals in the U.K. that have made some sort of transition. If 20% have full surgery that’s 24,000 post ops. There’s no evidence that those transitioned after 1989 offend at higher rates. Although if you include the wide ‘trans umbrella’ I’d be surprised if that wasn’t the case as there’s no reason to think male cross dressers etc don’t violently offend at the same rates as other males. (With no altered hormone levels etc).

Most people (IMO) are going to think that those who are medically transitioning under supervision should be supported to live as their acquired sex as much as possible whether m to f or f to m. You don’t think that. It’s a difference of opinion.

The truth lies somewhere between the two extremes and I believe there will be a sensible resolution. But not everyone is going to be happy. Most women and men will be though. The hardline GCs (no one should legally change sex or use some public facilities for their transitioned sex) and fantasist TRAs (anyone’s a woman if they say they are) won’t.

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nepeta · 12/08/2021 04:28

As to how all this will end... I have no idea. I mostly think that we are living during a particular type of social contagion, a bubble similar to earlier ones about Satanic rituals and false memories during the 1990s.

Those bubbles just silently deflate at some point.

But this one has a lot of money to back it and lots and lots of people who wish to be kind and progressive and have not done the deep thinking about the many complex aspects in this particular case. It also doesn't inconvenience men much at all.

So I don't know.

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mollythemeerkat · 12/08/2021 01:29

TalkingtoLangCleg - loving your post - one of the occasions when a "surfeit of words" (it wasnt by the way), was absolutely and completely spot on.

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Ereshkigalangcleg · 11/08/2021 22:01

Despite the domination of trans exclusionary views on these boards, they are a minority view in society (with the majority simply not caring).

Except that according to polls the public don't want to make it easier to get a GRA, they don't support males in women's sports, and their support for males in women's changing rooms and toilets is dependent on whether they have had genital reconstruction surgery.

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MaudTheInvincible · 11/08/2021 21:24

@Gibbonsgibbonsgibbons

I just came back to re-read this
But I know we’re not backing down, not giving up, not changing course now. We’ll just have to keep on doing what we’re doing, sticking to the facts and to our feminist/woman-centred principles, and refusing to be intimidated or silenced by misogynistic bullies.

Thanks TalkingtoLangClegintheDark 🥃


I love reading MN FWR for the high quality of writing from clever, erudite, and thoughtful women. They frequently uplift and educate me. Thanks
Does anyone ever wonder how this will end?
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nepeta · 11/08/2021 20:24

TalkingtoLangClegintheDark :
As has been said on here so many times, remove the ability to name women as a sex class and you remove the ability to accurately recognise and name sexism and misogyny. And thus the ability to challenge and organise against them. You directly harm the oppressed sex class to the benefit of the oppressor sex class.

This. A thousand times this. My thinking on this topic over the last decade boils down to this admirably expressed short paragraph.

Women have traditionally been oppressed on the basis of sex, and still are in many parts of this world. Sex discrimination is based on sex (or sex as interpreted by others), sexism is based on sex, sexual assaults and harassment are predominantly aimed at one sex. But currently the transgender activists and many feminists are busily erasing our ability to name the group which is damage by those ills.

Indeed, to name that group is viewed as transphobia. This makes much of traditional feminism incredibly difficult.

Consider trying to make sense out of rape statistics if inclusiveness requires you to write about the majority of the victims as just 'people' (as is done now in lots of places when pregnant women are corrected to 'pregnant people'). Ultimately it will then be 'people' who predominantly rape 'people', and, as one nonbinary activist argues, in this new world such a statement would be actually wrong only if women and men were not people.

Well, they (singular) said that about replacing 'women' in the context of 'pregnant people', but the same concerns apply.

I now have tremendous difficulty trying to see what terms I can use for which groups. People who have female bodies will be exposed to sex-based treatment unless they take testosterone and have mastectomies. Nonbinary female-bodied people will suffer from sexism but we are not allowed to point that out. And so on.

The second wave feminists sometimes wrote about naming being power. The un-naming and erasure of names is power, too. Astonishingly, it is being done by the progressives and feminists today.

The whole problem would have been avoided if the gender identity ideology had created a new set of terms for identities and left 'women' and 'men' alone. But given that they wish to erase the biological connotations of 'women' (and only 'women', by the way), what is happening will be terrible for anyone wanting to fight sex-based injustices.

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Gibbonsgibbonsgibbons · 11/08/2021 19:10

I just came back to re-read this
But I know we’re not backing down, not giving up, not changing course now. We’ll just have to keep on doing what we’re doing, sticking to the facts and to our feminist/woman-centred principles, and refusing to be intimidated or silenced by misogynistic bullies.

Thanks TalkingtoLangClegintheDark 🥃

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