Shon Fay smearing mumsnet on twitter.

[SunsetBeetch]

I'm blocked by Shon so can't read her tweets, but someone posted this screenshot

But the categories male / female and from them man / woman boy / girl are physcial facts -

We are mammals, we have known what is a male and what is a female before speech. ALL mammals know which are the males and which are the females, it's the most basic, fundamental thing, given that all species need to reproduce.

The idea that we - humans - no longer need words to describe this most basic of things is bizarre. And of course removing the words won't remove the facts that humans are in the main male or female, and all over the world they are treated differently because of it, generally with the females being considered basically sub human + the different needs we have due to biology which for most women in the world are NOT met, not even near, meaning massive amounts of permanent injury and death.

I didn’t get that from your post dukes, I think my last post wasn’t worded well.
I was referring to the people in your post who think that most trans women have had the surgery. I think this needs to be challenged but also clearly stated that it actually doesn’t make them any more of a woman and having the surgery doesn’t change Male patterned violence.

I really don’t think we should be discussing whether individuals have had the surgery unless it’s very relevant to the conversation. Which I know you agree with I was just wanted to say it again.

Totally agree that penis removal doesn’t equal more of a woman. That wasn’t my point.

My point was that sometimes there is a sexual motivation in play. Sometimes it’s delusion. Sometimes it’s something else. But almost always it’s men placing themselves beyond question.

Men who have surgery are no more woman than men who haven’t. It’s relevant though that most people think surgery is a prerequisite to sharing a space with a woman and it isn’t. I think it’s useful for people to know that the dick remains central.

I think this is a seperate conversation to just wondering if Shon Fay has had the surgery though which is what I had an issue with.

Yes -

I think that many women before - 6 months ago, a year ago - did feel that TIMs who had gone all the way - old school trans-sexuals - were Ok to be in with women

I think that opinon on that has hardened due to the incessant pushing of the TRAs to keep on expanding until no woman can turn a man away from anything or anywhere - for some women this includes their cunts (lesbians) - and this is detrimantal to the old school trans-sexuals who have been quietly getting on with things for years - small in number - and women have been either not noticing or (more frequently) going along with it out of courtesy.

These TRAs are damaging the perception of a minority group who really are in a difficult position - I have no doubt that trans-sexuals are discriminated against horribly + psychologically in a fragile place potentially - that level of hating yur own body must be crippling.

And they are pushing and pushing saying they need to gain acceptance for something that was already accepted - that some people are GNC and like to present accordingly (hello 1970s!) and that this acceptance (which is hardly new) can only be gained by removing all the things that women have fought so hard for, for decades, and denying that men as a group are in any way a danger to women as a group (NAMALT max) while simulataneously stating that men are so dangerous no trans person can be near them if they don't want to be.

So I have hit full TERF - fuck em. They hate women, absolutely hate us. They want to take everything that this misogynist society has allowed us to have - and push us back down to nothing again. Rather than second place we are now a poor third.

And all of the political parties are on board with this.

Which shows that something else is going on - what other minority group has gained such a high profile and support so very very quickly?

Women make up 50% of the population and we still do not have full human rights across most of the world including UK.

And the fact that transmen are hardly in the picture at all is also extremely telling.

This is an MRA movement - make no mistake about it. The constant NAMALTing. The inisistence that men know what women's sexual boundaries should be better than women. The insistence that lesbians just "have a go" and the threats when they say they simply are not interested. Lily M a couple of years back was a teen boy going on at Race For Life on twitter as being exclusionary and comparing it to segregation. Demanding answers as to why men were not allowed to run. Saying it was discrimination. An MRA. And now look.

Go DofH, well said!

I think there's stubborn and intolerant words from both sides, to be fair.

I think there's stubborn and intolerant words from both sides, to be fair.

I’ve yet to read any comments from feminists wanting to punch, beat, fuck up, rape, slap, or murder any trans people. They also haven’t demanded that a trans person sleep with them or suck their clit. Maybe you could show me where ANYTHING that has been posted on here resembles anything these men have said towards women.

I think there's stubborn and intolerant words from both sides, to be fair.

Could you give some examples from both sides?

Aristaeus76

I've been known to stubbornly repeat you can't change sex. And women's boundaries are theirs alone to decide and maintain.

Is that the sort of thing you mean?

Yes I think that a lot of people take a statement such as

men can't become women

as equivalent to

the threats that I have seen e.g. talking about mutilating with knives, attacking with baseball bats, raping
Then there is that fact that these people have marched at a ?womens march in USA with baseball bats
And that they have physically attacked a woman, invaded women's events and been very aggressive and disruptive, and are singling women out and following them and verbally attacking them (how long til physical)

I have not seen feminists / women who are gender critical do this stuff. Yes a lot of us are at the end of our tether now but I'm not about to march around wielding a baseball bat, and I wouldn't want to, I dont' want to attack anyone. This idea that women being gender critical is the same as physcally attacking people is ridiculous. And the people who have been confortational are bigger and stronger and more aggressive than the people they are atatcking - why is that? Oh yes because it's men attacking women.

And the rape fantasies all over the internet are disturbing as well.

It seems that for a fair number of transitioners it's all wrapped up in sex, and a very male view of sex at that.

Or saying 'women don't have dicks'. That this has become a statement of 'hate and transphobia' shows how ridiculous the whole thing is.

I think there's stubborn and intolerant words from both sides, to be fair.

Ah, the famous Donald Trump moral equivalence

Wait, when did Mumsnet become Fox News?

Not believing that humans can change sex isn't the same as threatening to kill people who don't believe that humans can change sex. Hope that makes things a bit clearer.

I think there's stubborn and intolerant words from both sides, to be fair.

Nah. Don’t buy that.

One side is saying ‘I’m concerned about the effect this will have on women’s rights, can we please discuss this in a public debate before we change the law?’

The other side is saying ‘die in a fire TERFs/enjoy your erasure women/suck my dick lesbians’ and other charming examples of vitriol.

The intolerance here is not coming from worried women and feminists. It’s coming from the TRA activists.

And notably, all the physical violence is too (speakers corner incident for example.)

This one who advocates physically attacking gender critical women as a form of pre-emptive self defence

So say I was at work and said, I'm not sure that it's a good idea for the GG not to tell parents if there are transgirls going on the trip with girls and bunking them in together

Then according to them, it would be OK for someoen to physically attack me. How far? A punch in the face? Knocked out? Broken bones? Stabbed?

It doesn't say, but given that it seems to be a response to the idea that gender critical women want to "exterminate" trans people (? who would actually believe this?) then I assume that they support murdering gender critical women.

I've seen a lot of death threats from TRAs so this isn't a surprise, what is a worry is that the threats are left around in a way they would not be against another group. But then I suppose men killing women who "step out of line" or "wind them up" is a normal thing.

Also rape threats.

How do they not see how very male it is to issue rape threats to women?

So Shon has now come out with a definition of 'woman'. It's as wibbly-wobbly as you'd expect.

twitter.com/cursesinvogue/status/980862602631962629?s=19

'I'm not explaining it to the likes of you - I just know, so shut up'?

Oh my god, that is hilarious.

Nice one Shon. Snappy, and to the point. We'll use that instead of "adult human female" from now on...

I actually find I'm getting quite fond of Shon now.

Like wanting to indulge a spoiled child, rather than upset them. There are far worse than Shon out there, after all.

Does Shon have a definition of 'man', as a matter of (very slight) interest?