Shon Fay smearing mumsnet on twitter.

[SunsetBeetch]

I'm blocked by Shon so can't read her tweets, but someone posted this screenshot

@Devilishpyjamas

In homage to this post lower down the thread by @Hypermice

*Shon, if you’re reading...

MN doesn’t allow you to live in a little bubble like Twitter does, where you can block anyone who doesn’t agree with you and just amplify your own self love, like a randy budgie pecking a mirror."*

I agree. I went to university in the early 90s and there were lots of straight boys (and gay boys) in makeup. Kurt Kobain was their role model. Nobody gave a fuck. Or actually there was plenty of that! anybody remember the James song "Laid"? "Dressed me up in women's clothes, messed around with gender roles, lined my eyes ans called me pretty" was about a male/female relationship afaik and was our mantra. Fun times.

Totally agree.

Someone on another thread made the point that parenting became so much about understanding and facilitating and enabling that this generation have nothing to be 'angry' about; nothing to rebel against.

I think this has a lot to do with it. My son is reasonably GNC - I've never laid down boundaries based on him being a boy so he's quite comfortable messing about with nail polish and make up etc whilst still recognising he is a straight man. He's also fairly laid back and wouldn't bother with rebelling anyway!

He has a girlfriend. She 'identifies' as many things (lactose intolerant whilst eating cheese and drinking milkshakes, amongst other dairy products, and suffering no ill effects is one thing...) including: pansexual and polyamorous.

Now I was, understandably, a bit concerned about this initially. My son is a bit of an old romantic, who falls in love and gets his heart broken. Not the sort who'd normally be suited to a polyamorous partner.

However, I said nothing (being the sensible mum I am) and a few months down the line it transpires that, at least to her:

Pansexual means she has only ever dated boys. And has only ever been attracted to boys but some of those boys she has dated have been, sorry 'identified as' bi/gay/also dated boys and some wore make up. So not actually 'pansexual' but it sounds a bit cooler to the unshockable parental generation that "straight, but some of my ex boyfriends have been bi and/or worn make up/been a bit gender bending". Because that would also describe me but isn't very edgy because I'm now 43.

Polyamorous, to her/them, appears to mean exclusive, but not joined at the hip and will continue to have friends of the opposite sex and go out socially with friends of the opposite sex without your opposite sex partner but without there being a romantic/sexual element to it. Kind of like how I have always done things.

So. I think a lot of this 'identifying as' something is actually about being very 'normal' but finding a label to describe every aspect of you your, rather ordinary, idiosyncrasies.

It's just that all the adults seem to be really super keen to continue their facilitating and enabling by writing into law a whole generational game of Let's Pretend. Which also just happens to benefit some rather dodgy middle aged men and a whole group of men who hate women too.

Because not conforming strictly, or at all, to the narrowly prescriptive gender stereotypes associated with your birth sex does not mean you are actually the opposite birth sex born into the wrong body.

I also think that "I identify as..." rather than "I am..." makes it easier to change your mind at a later date. It's far easier to just 'identify as' something else than it is to say "I am not X anymore. Now I am Y."

It is a frightening example of social engineering accomplished by the corporate media in collusion with their advertisers and misogynists yearning for the good old days, isn't it.
Please pass the tin foil hats.

So Shawcross has resigned so Eddie Izzard has now got her seat on the NEC....

Is Eddie Izzard now a 'she' too??!!

Clearly missed that one!

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.hollywoodreporter.com/amp/bookmark/eddie-izzard-reflects-coming-as-transgender-why-caitlyn-jenner-is-a-role-model-1012926

Sorry not the best source but I couldn't be arsed to find others but I know they are out there. Sure there was references in the Guardian about it.

TheGoldenBough that's a good assessment and I think there'a a lot of truth in what you say.

I gave up on that article Darth, when he said he has boy genetics
FFS

Shon has just had a twitter rant over stuff raised on this thread.

Meanwhile Paris Lees dismisses fears of men in women's spaces as "some people are afraid of escalators - you need to get over it"

I'm genuinely sorry if you have concerns about the idea that trans rights could place you in danger. There's absolutely no evidence for this but I appreciate the fear is real. Some people are scared of escalators. It's something you're going to have to work on and I wish you well

Just zero understanding shown there. Zero. It's like all that male violence just never happens, and suddenly we have get over it - and yes, have a male bodied nurse with stubble doing your smear. And males on a female psychiatric ward.

Everything is always a woman's problem - you notice that? We have sexual abuse of women and girls - on an almost industrial scale in places like Telford - but we're told allowing men in women's spaces is an irrational fear.

We get very little chance of justice when we seek it - victim blaming and rape myths permeate the court system - in court this week, a woman who was left bleeding, crying, and stating clearly what happened to her was not consensual - along with texts about "Belfast sluts' and "like a merry go round' - don't result in a conviction. Because she went to a party with men. Famous men, rich men with power and fame, "sportsmen."

What do we do when we try to keep ourselves safe - with segregation on the basis of sex, but can't - because anyone can ID as a woman, and enter female spaces?

And then we're told "anyone acting inappropriately will be breaking the law, and dealt with accordingly"? They won't be - they aren't. Women are told they are overreacting, or lying, or making it up. Men are found not guilty.

Brilliant post Terftastic

“Half the UK population is female, I think it is the case that most women end up having kids. The fact that "mum" conjures up images of boring women with no interest past their children for so many people, highlights just how sexist our society still is.”

This

I'm genuinely sorry if you have concerns about the idea that trans rights could place you in danger. There's absolutely no evidence for this but I appreciate the fear is real. Some people are scared of escalators. It's something you're going to have to work on and I wish you well

The calm supremacism in this is revolting. It basically translates as Paris's feelings matter, and no woman's does. Paris extends a tiny bit of basic social skills towards the conversation in an attempt to sound less of an arse, but has issued Paris's orders dripping with male privilege. 'Get over it now, and enable me 'cos I say so'.

No. No matter how often the narrative is framed as 'this is a done deal', no it isn't. No, you don't get to set the parametres of the conversation. No, you don't get to be the only person worthy of respect or being heard. Women are not inferior to you. Women will not be obeying you.

And I could be equally rude here about what I could suggest Paris needs to 'get over', but I'm not as dismissive of other human beings as Paris is.

Some people are scared of escalators.

Interesting equivalence there.

The thing with escalators is that there are always alternatives, stairs or lifts for example so that people who have a fear of escalators can be accommodated.

What alternatives are there for women when men are invading our spaces, with well understood and well documented effects?

What Paris has stated, whether intentionally or not is what feminists have been saying for years:

All public space is male. It's built for and by men. Women are allowed to use public space on sufferance.

Presumably at some point women were supposed to just go back into their kitchens and make Paris a sammich, but we didn't, so now we have to be forced out of public space and the best way to do that is for men to pretend to be a poor and pornified simulacrum of their mental image of womanhood, while still retaining all the character traits of masculinity and invade our spaces, with violence when they believe it to be expedient.

Men have always underestimated women. Silly boys.

Since the fear of men is so irrational Paris will have no trouble using the men’s changing rooms. After all there is no threat there is there, from penis bearers?

I'm currently on that thread.... Comparing trans who suffer violence to women, they really believe they have it as bad.

Violence against trans people is wrong, violence against anyone is wrong, but are women being used as human shields merely to validate men's feelings?

Terftastic

What i dont get is what's the end game? If they all need the validation of entering women's spaces isnt that validation going to go up in a puff of smoke once any man can self id themselves into women's spaces? Everything ends up unisex so how will they show how so very special & different they are?

I realise i shouldnt look for logic but it's how my mind works.

Is it the self id itself as a broader concept?

the golden bough
How wise you are I would have freaked if a teenager told me they were pansexual or polyamorous! But can't say I'm surprised at the anodyne meaning as this younger generation is hardly into danger with their safe spaces and trigger warnings. I know I'm not the first to say it but playing outdoors with your friends for long periods unsupervised produced more robust adults. And my parents generation set clear boundares, you were expected to bugger off when the grown ups were having onversations- which as they were all so hard working sitting down with fiends was special-and only bother them if you were in real trouble. I got so annoyed with my daughter letting her son interrupt our conversations when we seldom saw each other-definately saw it as not settng proper boundaries, She and he are so bound at the hip I find it quite sick. I enjoyed hanging with my mum but I also had a private teenage life and I don't mean sex- my own values and interests appropriate to a teenager. Hes 18 and to me lacks sophistication-the sophistication that comes from doing your own thing. It wouldn't surprise me if he was one of those who want to be protected and would throw free speech on the alter to get that safety.. My daughter has a giant sliver up her ass from fence sitting-I suspect she thinks I'm a terf. I wonder if its a class thing my daughter and her son are middle-class and I'm not.
I enjoyed this thread a lot.

I see transwomen as looking for validation by being able to freely enter women's spaces. I see, and understand to an extent, the want to validate - but very few transwomen "pass" - I'm sorry but that is my perception.

I think Paris Lees would pass, but Shon wouldn't. The vast, vast majority of TRA transwomen on Twitter, who show photos, do not pass even slightly. But they think they do, because everyone tells them they do, out of politeness.

I'm not sure if they care if everything ends up unisex, tbh, I think they would think they'd won the battle, because there are no spaces segregated on the basis of being biologically female anymore - so it doesn't matter. As long as they can call themselves "women" and not be excluded on the basis of sex, I don't think they care.

I see self ID as bad law, I see it as a loophole for absolutely any male to gain access to female spaces. That is not accusing actual transwomen of being predators, but more that it is an unintended consequence, a loophole for any man who wants to enter female spaces.

And there is plenty of evidence of men wishing to do so, Paris is wrong.

There is no logic. Paris denies that any evidence exists that the trans community includes sexual offenders. Paris has an obvious major issue with reality. Chance of having a meaningful conversation is therefore zilch.

The bottom line is a total impasse. People on this extreme line are saying I am a woman, I have always been a woman, my biology is female. All their reasoning comes from their belief that that point is already wholly established beyond doubt.

Gender critical people are saying no, sorry but that's plain not true. It's not possible to build on a concept that's plain not true.

I don't honestly see any way around it.

Oh.

Great.

news.sky.com/story/eddie-izzard-on-labour-nec-after-christine-shawcroft-resigns-over-anti-semitism-row-11311962

Self id is appallingly bad law! I still cant really believe that actual politicians are considering it.

I agree about 'passing'; it's unusual. I'm really really bad at recognising faces so i actually mostly recognise people by how they move - men move differently (pelvis i assume as i have also spotted pregnancies very early that way).

I agree it's at an impasse, Kneedeep.

Self ID isn't even law yet, but people and organsisations are acting as though it is.

Women are already losing losing out. And that is because of the mantra (that even Diane Abbott has repeated) "transwomen are women".

Born males, who identify as women, have already ousted actual women from political roles. Lily Madigan and Heather Peto have both been born and raised as males, and taken on political position set by for women. Because they "are" women, apparently.

For anyone to deny that women's rights, women's equality, isn't being affected by this, well it's unbelievable. As for women's safety from male violence - in traditionally protected all-female spaces -well, we just have to get over it apparently.

Someone posted this on twitter earlier (in relation to the Paddy Jackson rape case but I think it goes wider). I think it's bang on - it is always our fault:

Get harassed - it's only banter
Wary of strange men - uptight
Wary of familiar men - paranoid
Friendly with guys - a slut
Trusting of guys - stupid
Report - a liar
Don't report - part of the problem
Dress up - asking for it
Dress down - ugly and lazy

When is it not our fault?

So true, Capn - and very succinctly what I was trying to say in my rather wordy post!

So many recent cases where women who have been assaulted aren't believed by police, courtrooms, juries - and yet we're told we're paranoid to protect female spaces. And worse, told that if anything does happen as a result of a male free-for-all in female spaces, we'd be able to have some sort of legal recompense. When we don't even have that now in so many cases! It is actual gaslighting.