Shon Fay smearing mumsnet on twitter.

[SunsetBeetch]

I'm blocked by Shon so can't read her tweets, but someone posted this screenshot

Coopting not copying.

If TRAs don't want anyone to ask about their genital situation it would probably help if they stopped ordering women to suck their cocks when angry, and erased from the internet all evidence of Julia Serano performing slam poetry about his penis long after declaring himself a woman.

It’s like ‘misgendering’. It’s normally nice to call people by the name they like. But when it’s a lie based on an attempt to colonise someone else’s life and space I reserve the right not to do it.

I actually feel quite sorry for SF having just watched their pinned tweet clip of their stand-up comedy. It's awful, the material is unoriginal and the delivery is flat. SF has zero charisma. Good on SF for feeling confident enough to give it a go, but it is cringey to watch.

It’s irrelevant whether they’ve had surgery.

I disagree actually. People like Paris Lees (who also still has a penis) writes porn soaked articles with a distinctly male flavour (pardon the pun) and claims that they are speaking for women. In this particular article they dismiss the sexual experiences of another female journalist, and then dive right in with their own, claiming that that is what women really want.

I will not be lectured about what constitutes good sex for a woman by someone who has a penis. Especially when a proportion of it has violent tendencies. Soz.

And this is from someone who is now lauded as a great trans voice, and is apparently so womanly that they appeared on the front cover of Vogue, penis and all, to celebrate 100 years of women getting the vote.

www.vice.com/en_uk/article/nnq44q/paris-lees-the-21-sexiest-things-about-sex-696

Yes, genitals are apparently irrelevant and 'who cares what is between someone's legs'. That is until a TRA is pontificating about how it is transphobic not to want to give them a blow job because their penis is 'female'.

Or until Munroe Bergdorf is telling us that some women don't have vaginas.

Then suddenly it's oh so relevant.

Having non medical genital surgery should never be encouraged and I think it’s cruel to pretend that there is a level of body modification where you become a woman.

Look I’m the least TRA person that’s ever walked the earth, however I worry about this narrative that men with genital surgery are somehow more women than men without.
I worry that young confused men will rush into genital surgery because they feel it’s the only way to truly become a woman.
There isn’t a sliding scale of how much of a woman you are depending on how little of a penis you have left.

I’m not going to be lectured to about female sexuality by someone socialised as a man with an inverted penis they are claiming is a vagina either.

Teacuphiccup, totally agree with you.

I’m not going to be lectured to about female sexuality by someone socialised as a man with an inverted penis they are claiming is a vagina either.

Yes, fair enough. I just thought the article was extra creepy when you think about Paris's 'role' in sex as opposed to a woman's.

But yes, I do get your point.

Look I’m the least TRA person that’s ever walked the earth, however I worry about this narrative that men with genital surgery are somehow more women than men without.

I don't think the TIMs who keep their penis will rush into SRS surgery because feminists are making a distinction. The small minority who are catastrophically dysphoric will move ahead with surgery to ease distress and the large majority who are not dysphoric will carry on as usual bellowing into the ether about the glories of their ladydick.

I'm not sure it's tasteful or appropriate to talk about individuals and their SRS status. I can agree there.

But the general conversation needs to be had since there is a range of opinion about this, with a reasonably significant segment of women believing that TIM-sans-penis is acceptable in women's spaces but TIM-avec-penis is not.

(To add: I think XY = man regardless of surgery. I think single sex spaces should be retained in all cases.)

Sometimes, when having this conversation, it can be difficult to remember which way is up. That's how much the TRAs have distorted our language.

I agree with both Ellen & Teacup.

It's creepy for me, being told what good sex is by a born male - GRS or not - extra creepy IMO if they still have a penis. Which, we're also told is now not exclusively a male sex organ. Apparently

There's just a whole load of men telling women what they are, how they must feel, and how to think and speak, what language to use, and to mind their language. I'm a bit sick of it.

The dick thing is in part because of a general (maybe reducing now) perception in the public of a transwoman as essentially an effeminate gay man who has had full genital surgery which therefore means no threat to women so why are they being so mean?

the fact that many TW fancy women and are bedicked is therefore an important fact to get out there.

I also believe it is crass to discuss on an individual basis

Having your penis + balls removed and a hole created does not turn you into a woman. The idea that you can "make" a vagina and that it's little more than a hole for a dick is highly misogymist and not at all surprising given that women are in fact referred to as a handy set of warm holes for men to fuck, an awful lot.

People who have massive issues with their body to the point they want to remove or alter healthy parts as fundamental as their reproductive organs in order to fit a different internal body image need support and help, it must be incredibly traumatising.

What is forgotten in this though is that it is considered normal for girls and women to experience high amoutns of body distress to the point where they damage themselves to try and suit an internal image. The sad thing here is that it's never enough. Is it ever enough for a trans person - will the reality ever fit the imternal image? That's another conversation probably.

I think that the fact that many TIMs fancy women and keep their dicks is indeed relevant to this conversation. And call themselves lesbians and some say cunty-style lesbians are bigots if they won't lie back and get fucked by the mighty penis - so new, so brave.

etc.

" given that women are in fact referred to as a handy set of warm holes for men to fuck, an awful lot."

And treated as, in fact. Rape is hardly uncommon.

• more and more violent porn representing us thus.

Then one advantage of having a go at the GRA would be if we could make it clear that body mutilation is not a necessary part of 'sex change'. It's already not necessary for getting a GRC, nor is taking cross-sex hormones. Playing along and pretending that the surgery will make a difference, needs to stop. I weep when I see those young lesbians having mastectomies.

If only we had a health service that offered meaningful therapy that lasts long enough to get to the root of those dysphoric ideas and to help with relief from them... just what Self-ID would deem unnecessary.

Have you all seen the threads this week on the disastrous surgery-gone-wrong stories, and surgeons who refuse to take the blame?

.

Also not sure about minding the feelings of a person who feels the correct advice for school kids is to get tits early and suck dick.

My DD started "getting tits" at 8.5, how early is early enough for this person?

Good post TheDukesofHazzard

I think many people have an innate and strrong reactiom to the idea of healthy parts being removed - people feel really uncomfortable with the idea of people who want limbs removed etc.

I think the idea is that if a person - if a man - is prepared to go as far as having his penis cut off then he's really fucking serious and has earnt his honorary woman place.

I agree that seeing young people having extensive (painful, not risk free) surgery, being rendered infertile, being signed up to a lifetime of drugs (not risk free) is really upsetting.

As many on MN are mothers, I think that angle adds an extra layer of concern.

I have gone full terf recently though - I've been on MN for years and posting on this issue for ?4 or 5 -

(NC a lot )

I remember saying years ago, that if we accept that men can be women and vice versa, and boys can be girls and vice versa, and it's all based ona feeling in the person's head, and you can't tell whether someone is male or female without asking them, then it means we have no language to talk about womens/girls (or mens/boys) issues.

So you have a country where 100% of boys and 0% of girls are in education. Then you say, how do you know which are boys and which are girls? You can't, without asking them. So all you can say is that 50% of children are in education, and the issue of no girls being educated is concealed.

A poster back then said don't be so ridiculous. But this is the logical conclusion, it always has been.

And I never thought for a minute that girls would be referred to as "non prostate havers" and that loads of women (on the internets) would DEFEND this, + so many other examples.

The TRAs suggest words like menstruator, non prostate haver, ovulator,
But in the next breath say it is feminists who want to reduce everything to biology
They also say that you can't know what sex you are unless you have hed genetic checks
But apparently women somehow know without tests whether they have ovulated or not?

Whole thing is nonsensical. Fact that lots of powerful people are keen shows that there is something else in there they like - I believe it is a good way to put women back where they belong (at the bottom of the heap with no voice and no presence in non ornamental situations eg sports), whether they relaise this is why they like it or not.

See I think that rhetoric is really dangerous that in order to ‘earn your place as a woman’ you have to have your penis removed and it should be challenged. There is no evidence that Male pattern violence is lessoned after genital surgery and you can’t change sex no matter how much you pay to be feminised.

I think it muddies the argument if we say ‘well you can’t change sex but that one really really wants to be a woman and has self harmed to prove it so we’ll let that one into female only spaces’

Oh didnt finish my thought.

I have gone full terf and I don't like it.

The loud TRAs and their supporters have pushed it to the point where I am starting to develop a nasty, intolerant attitude. As a lifelong lefty nicey person this is really uncomfortable. But I've had it to the back teeth with this shit.

Like this person. This thread is a personal attack, really, a lot of unpleasant stuff. BUT they think the best advice for schoolkids is to get tits early and suck cock? Why should a person who says that have a mainstream platform? Why should they be treated with super-care. I've had it.

That extreme porn fan as well. The views of these people needs to get out there. Paris Lees - street harassment is empowering and it's just miserable dried up feminists who don't like it. FUCK OFF. You are NOT a woman or you wold KNOW that street harassment is fucking horrible and starts when you're way too young. Get stuffed telling girls and women not to be so poe-faced when men shout obscenities at them on the street. Just stop it.

Teacup you miss my point.

I agree with you.

The fact is though that much of the general public think that TIMs are essentially gay men who have had extensive surgery AKA are not "chancers". The idea is that no man with nefarious ideas - whether to do with sex offences or winning at sport or getting a place on a board or whatever - would have their dick cut off in order to do so. And so those who do, are small in number and they have done something so extreme they should be catered to.

It is the idea that most TIMs have had genital surgery that needs to be challeneged, and that most are gay. This is not true.

I don't want anyone getting their body chopped about unless it is absolutely necessary (for physical or psychological reaosns) - I'm surprised you got otherwise from my posts.

A man with his penis removed is not a woman in my view either.

As a standard old-school feminist I want rid of gender and everyone can dress, style theselves as they wish, adopt whatever forms of speech / mannerisms, have whatever name.

And leave the surgery for the very few who are so psychologically distressed that there are no other options.