Xenophobia, homophonic, transphobia

[spstchmu]

Are you gonna do anything about it? Like, i know the line is that shoving the madness in the feminism board means it's not transphobia. And I know it's been done to death but I'm sick of it. It's not acceptable. Xenophobia, racism and homophobia also increasing.
And no. I won't leave. This is the biggest forum of its kind and it needs to represent and respect us all. And care that it's not.

I’m also a survivor, it is directly relevant to why I don’t want men in women’s spaces, and the views of other survivors who disagree with me on this issue doesn’t mean that my views are somehow cancelled out and they can decide when I can and can’t reference it. They don’t get to give my consent.

Look inwards.

I am sorry, I didn't know that. I am too. We just have different views on this, which is ok don't you think?

Yes. But sometimes genderists who are or claim to be survivors will say things like “how dare they use MY experience to persecute trans people”. It’s not about “trans” anything. As a gender critical feminist and a survivor, my experiences are directly relevant to how I move through the world, and as a disbeliever in gender identity ideology, I just see men who identify as women as no different to any other man. My experiences of male violence are highly relevant and I will continue to reference them and draw on them when people try to impose their views on me. And that’s the case for very many gender critical women who are survivors. Including JKR, Allison Bailey, Jo Phoenix and countless more, known and unknown. It’s not uncommon for women to have those experiences.

You’d be seriously hard pushed to find any in threads on the Litter Tray thread.
…

Thank you though, for what it’s worth, and I can agree to disagree. I just see the “trans rights” movement as wholly misogynistic and disrespectful of women’s feelings and basic needs.

When there is a conflict of rights then and there isnt a compromise that can be reached then one group has to be given preference over the other. There is simply no other way. This doesn't mean that you are failing to take into account the experiences and rights of others. These have been accounted for and still preference can be given to another group.

There are loads of areas in society where there is obvious conflict between people's rights. For example, we all have freedom of religion in this country and can follow religions that believe homosexuality is a sin. We also have equality laws in the UK that prevent discrimination based on sexual orientation. A Christian hotelier cannot refuse to accommodate a gay couple on the basis of their sexual orientation. Arguably this is forcing them to go against their religious belief to some extent but the anti discrimination laws in this case would trump people's right to follow their religion. Nobody is ignoring the Christian hotelier's beliefs, rights or opinions. It's just a judgement call has been made to give preference to the homosexual couple's right to be treated equally.

So what do you suggest as a solution?women's spaces are women only from quarter past the hour until quarter to when they then become mixed for half an hour when the cycle begins again?

Same. And whilst my abuser wasn't trans, he did used to say things like "isn't it a shame i can't help at Brownie/guide camp. Then I could be with you even more.

Thankfully it was long enough ago that men, however they chose to present, weren't allowed. Had it been more recent, he could have just claimed to be a woman on the relevant days. <shudder>

As long as the law reflects majority opinion

Law is not, and should not be based on majority opinions!

Yes - to some extent they will reflect the views of the general public, but we don’t have referendums on many topics because of the potential consequences. Death penalty. Abortion. Same sex marriage. Assisted suicide. These are all issues that generate strong feelings.

Ultimately laws have to be voted in by parliament, but those that come into existence because of public opinion can be disastrous - hence lots of expert input and debate before bills are passed.

Yes, as with this man

https://www.dailymail.com/news/article-6894599/When-man-called-Mark-locked-threatening-kill-mother-child.html

We live in a democracy, of course laws should generally reflect the will of the people. Yes, they are shaped by legal experts and have to be compliant with international law etc but ultimately they should be shaped by the population. What other alternative do you suggest?

We don't need a referendum on everything for the government to change laws. Normally a government will be voted in on a manifesto that will contain various changes they want to make to the law. Look at Assisted Dying for example. Controversial but this government was voted in with this manifesto promise and they are attempting to change the law accordingly.

As do I.

And over on the tribunal thread we have a man claiming in court to have menopause symptoms. Like Dr Upton, an NHS doctor no less, claimed to be “biologically female”. Someone put it very well very early in the thread why they care, they don’t want to be forced to endorse complete and utter nonsense like this.

Absolutely right, @Ereshkigalangcleg. And I refuse to be defined as a ‘cis’ woman - I am not a subset of my own biological sex.

I have zero notifications for any post deleted by email, sms, or on here.

Read back through the thread. You have had deletions. So my point stands.

MNHQ only notify you of deletion if the post was particularly egregious such that posting similar again will result in a ban.

Well that's pretty stupid. Then anyone can just continually skate the line of things they know will be deleted but won't result in a ban

There should be 3 strikes with notifications if you've posted something that violates the guidelines and needs to be removed. And yes, even me! I think @BeckyAMumsnet and co don't inform you so you cant monitor their consistency very well and you can't appeal. Sneaky.

When we suggested third spaces, we were taking trans people's experiences into account. It's not us who rejected third spaces as a solution. It's not us who have decried as "transphobic" the experiences of rape victims wanting Edinburgh Rape Crisis to be female-only.

Your post is pure DARVO.

No one is being minoritised by being asked to use the facilities for their sex.

Then it would be good if transwomen started by respecting the female sex and our rights. You don't get to come in and invade womens spaces, redefine us ('cervix havers', 'menstruators', 'birthing person') and remove our rights to meet as a sex class and THEN demand respect. It's not going to happen. Trans as the usurpers and interlopers need to show respect first. Only then, do they get it back.

You don’t achieve anything by choosing one side and failing to take any account of the experiences and rights of the other.

Tell transactivists that.