Archers thread #150: For whom the sausage rolls: George over a Berrow, Fallon & Harrison seek new lease on life, is it all a Fête Accompli? Discuss The Snivelling Simpletons, sorry, The Archers, here.

[Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g]

Thank you, @PseudoBadger, for kicking off this long, long series of Archers threads.

All views on The Archers welcome here! New blood welcomed, and of course we are always delighted to welcome back former or occasional listeners/posters. We don't all agree on all points, although we do mostly try to be civil about it. Most of us are posting tongue in cheek a lot of the time, so don't worry about revealing that you think people frequently miss their own weddings because of a morning quickie while in a plaster cast, or other unusual views.

Spoilers: not on this thread, please! We don't wait for the omnibus to discuss the weeknight episodes, but we do try our best to avoid cross-contamination from www.mumsnet.com/talk/radio_addicts/4636789-the-archers-spoilers-thread-7-cant-wait-for-702pm-join-us-here, where spoilers are positively welcomed!

For newer listeners, lurkers or those who just have no idea what we're talking about, @DadDadDad has created this useful thread: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/radio_addicts/3557323-For-Archers-fans-a-guide-to-acronyms-on-the-long-running-discussion-threads-and-any-other-meta-thread-questions-you-may-have - BOOP point for him! (See thread for explanation.)

Thanks for title suggestions. I basically took @OverArmour's excellent suggestion and managed to shoehorn in snivelling simpleton, gloriously coined by @Eastie77Returns to refer to Lee in the first instance.

@WitcheryDivine suggested Recharging, Red Kites and The Man They Call Ron, is Ambridge becoming an earthly paradise or a hell on earth? which seems as good a place as any to kick off our discussions! Ron = Rob, a fortuitous typo on a previous thread. It does feel a bit as if we're marking time before he turns up again. Odd to do what could be a high profile storyline over the summer holidays when a lot of people will be away, but depending on your point of view, maybe that's a blessing!

Whither George? Is he shaping up to be Andrew Tate mark 2?

Everybody looking forward to Ferret Fun at the Fête? Me neither.

Over to you!

I think it is very much the way incels believe the world works, and there were some telling lines from George showing that he blames women for any weakness or misfortune the men suffer.

Ummmm @TherapistInATabard literally says George is like that because of observing the MEN around him?!

@harriethoyle "
Ummmm @TherapistInATabard literally says George is like that because of observing the MEN around him?!"
The suggestion was that the men were weak and dominated by women. Susan "rules the roost" Hannah "walks all over"Mike, Alice "embarrassed"Chris. Yes, this is how incels think. Not a good idea to suggest they gave justification!

I feel the Archers very much mirrors life in that men/boys are allowed to be terribly impacted by their upbringing and any faults can be attributed backwards. Ruairi, George, even Will and Ed. But women even where they have the same sorts of issues or worse (Mia) are just expected to crack on.

It occurred to me earlier that Keira/Poppy are the first girls born into the Grundy line… ever? That’s bound to mean big changes in future.

Sorry for those upset by the brain tumour storyline. It’s clumsy isn’t it, could do with balance from someone saying “come on Tony it’s a horrible illness” ideally someone with some experience.

Tom and Fallon was quite weird, I don’t remember them being friends before, but was a bit of light relief

I think tbh that he has a relatively functional family - yes bad things have been said and done in the past, but there is a lot of love there - Clarrie is a wonderful grandma, Emma Ed and Will all try their best most of the time. I think it's a mixture of personality, teasing / bullying at school, and maybe internet exposure to misogyny.

But am struggling to remember what his early years were like.

There have been no hints in George's speech so far of incel thought or terminology, have there?

I think justice rarely works the way people want it to.

Cracking observation @WitcheryDivine - I bet most women have seen that in action.

There have been no hints in George's speech so far of incel thought or terminology, have there?

Pretty much everything he says has incel-y undertones. Wasn’t he telling Brad recently that both Button sisters were gagging for a piece of him? When, as far as we know, not a single human female has ever, ever shown the slightest interest in even talking to him. There’s no evidence he’s built or maintained respectful friendships with girls; he’s vile to and about his (former?) step sister; incapable of respecting female colleagues; even more vile, and manipulative, to his female relatives. He’s spoken of teasing at school - so presumably has no male friends either. He tolerated Brad for just as long as he could manipulate him. AKA textbook ‘loner’. Furthermore he (can’t believe I’m using this phrase!) thinks the world owes him a superstar living, and already has a dossier of people, mostly women, who have prevented him from being seated beside Elon Musk.

Ok had forgotten the Button sisters comment, yes.

But isn't he horrible to and about everyone, not specifically females?

Meant to include Tony versus his sisters in the list of men terribly impacted by their upbringing.

I don’t think George sounds like an “incel” (yet) as that means involuntary celibate and he claims with no evidence whatever to be quite the in demand lothario. What he is, is a classic misogynist prick with flavours of Andrew Tate.

But being horrible to everyone means he’s socially isolated and immune to the moderating influence of other real people’s beliefs and attitudes.

I don’t know if Grange Farm has a basement (probably used as a wine cellar when Oliver and Caroline lived there together!) but spiritually George is right there, surrounded by empty beer cans, and Deliveroo detritus, communing with all the other self-identified rejected males on the planet. Plotting his revenge on the world - ideally through the spectacular ill-treatment of women.

He’s especially loathsome to women I think. What is it he says about Mia - that she’s ‘hairy’? Just vile. Contemptuous and seeing women as beneath him except for the usual purposes…in fact, remember his creepy behaviour around Fallon?

George is vile to and about all women-his mother, his grandmothers, Hannah, Mia, Fallon.

I don't know why people are finding excuses for him...

Nobody's finding excuses for him. The discussion is about why he has turned out the way he has. He is an adult now and legally responsible for his own choices and actions. He can either choose to stop whining and blaming everyone else for everything that's ever gone wrong for him and take control of his own life, or he can continue to wallow in self-pity and lash out at people who (inexplicably to me) love and care for him in spite of his repellent personality. For dramatic purposes I expect we're in for the latter.

I think the "involuntarily" bit = "because stupid females / all of society can't see how wonderful I am", though @WitcheryDivine !

I feel for Tony but it annoys me when men make a sexual assault on a female relative all about them and their rage towards the perpetrator.

Helen endured it and has to deal with it. It hasn’t been helpful for her to see her brother and father consumed with rage as if they were the victims.

I think the rage is partly because they feel they should have been able to prevent it.

@Fleetress , Mia is George's step-sister and always will be. Will was widowed.

@Eastie77Returns "I feel for Tony but it annoys me when men make a sexual assault on a female relative all about them and their rage towards the perpetrator."
I agree. But I don't think Tony is doing that. He is allowed to be filled with rage towards the man who hurt his daughter so badly. His experience is not hers, but it is also valid.

Ime of teens, George isn't full incel yet. He's misogynistic and likely follows Andrew Tate. His attitude towards women is depressingly familiar. I don't think his difficult upbringing has caused this, more George is a reflection of a disenfranchised societal attitude.

Her position in relation to the Grundys seems a bit … unstable to me. To Clarrie and Eddie she’s still a step-grandchild; but clearly no one thought it appropriate for her to continue being brought up by Will long term once Nic was gone. (And not just because she’d become a domestic slave.) I think it’s grand that the SWs haven’t erased her completely, as they might have done, but I’d honestly class her as an ex-step daughter / sister.

You might, but she is still Will's step-daughter. She's his dead wife's child not his (dead) ex-wife's child.

She is still Clarrie and Eddie's grand-daughter's half-sister, and they have treated Mia as a grand-child in the past. Did you expect that to change because Will ill-health meant that she and Jake went to live with their biological father, who lives fairly locally?

WitcheryDivine
Tom and Fallon was quite weird, I don’t remember them being friends before, but was a bit of light relief

Tom and Fallon went out together for a couple of months at one point; she dumped him and went home with Ed from Glastonbury where she was meant to be helping Tom with his burger van and hadn't been much, and Tom was rescued by Kirsty and got back with her for the second or third time – I forget how many times those two chucked each other and got back together in all.