❓ Archers thread #126: It’s a mystery why we’re all still listening.

[Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g]

Thank you, @PseudoBadger, for kicking off this long, long series of Archers threads.

All views on The Archers welcome here! New blood welcomed. We don't all agree on all points and most of us are posting tongue in cheek a lot of the time, so don't worry about revealing that you’d love to be on the Parish Council, or other unusual views.

Spoilers: not on this thread, please. We don't wait for the omnibus to discuss the weeknight episodes, but we do try our best to avoid cross-contamination from www.mumsnet.com/Talk/radio_addicts/4197199--The-Archers-spoilers-thread-6-Cant-wait-for-7-02pm-Join-us-here, where spoilers are positively welcomed!

For newer listeners, lurkers or those who just have no idea what we're talking about, @DadDadDad has created this useful thread: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/radio_addicts/3557323-For-Archers-fans-a-guide-to-acronyms-on-the-long-running-discussion-threads-and-any-other-meta-thread-questions-you-may-have - BOOP point for him! (See thread for explanation.)

Thanks to @LillianGish and @Taswama for thread title ideas, but I felt most in sympathy with @R4's suggestion. Is it me, or is the programme in the doldrums at the moment?

Haven't heard the 31/3 episode yet. Perhaps it's a gem.

If they didn't face up them when Kate hit puberty are they likely to now?

Shula had to deal with Alistair's gambling too. She's not new to dealing with addiction and recognising it for the inhuman, controlling monster it is.

She does drink. She's a 'nice glass of wine after a long day' or with dinner, person. I'm sure she could stop without too much bother though.

Or how about Jazzer moves in with Tracey and Alice can take over his room at the house of past pain and re-built relationships?

I think Shula is the obvious/ only choice.

What relation is she to Alice?

@MissBarbary

Johnny and the ghastly Hannah are renting Will’s house

Which house has presumably turned into some sort of Lovecraftian portal to another dimension, given both they and Pat have vanished without trace.

I'm not sure I've ever read anything by H. P. Lovecraft, but I gather that he has a fictional cosmic entity called Cthulhu which is enormous and has tentacles. Perhaps he/it lives under Lakey Hill and pulls in a victim from time to time through one of his many portals dotted round the village. Kathy was probably an early one. Maybe that's what's happened to Richard Locke too.

What relation is Shula to Alice?

Alice is Jennifer's daughter. Jennifer's father was Jack Archer, older brother of Phi Archer, Shula's father. So Jennifer and Shula are first cousins. Does that make Alice Shula's first cousin once removed? (In which case, what is a second cousin, which is what I thought that relationship was? I've been told in the past a second cousin is in fact something else.)

Phil! Not Phi. He wasn't a Greek letter or one third of a US fraternity house.

Yes that's first cousin once removed. Shula's child, Dan, is Alice's second cousin.

The first, second or third part refers to closeness, the removed part to generations. So to be a second cousin, or a third cousin, you have to be in the same generation. The 'removed' part deals with the 'half steps' in between first cousins and second cousins.

You can see the whole thing in terms of steps (each of which describes a first degree relationship, that is one where the people concerned share 50% of their DNA, actually if parent/child, on average if full siblings). Jenny to Jack, Jack to Phil, Phil to Shula is three steps. Alice to Shula is four steps. Alice to Dan is five steps.

First cousins are children of siblings, and have grandparents in common.
Second cousins are children of first cousins, and have great-grandparents in common.
Third cousins are children of second cousins, and have great-great-grandparents in common.

Cousins once removed are what Shula and Alice are. Shula is Jennifer's first cousin.

There are loads of cousins in TA but they seem rarely to refer to the fact

Chris has spoken to Alan. If Alice speaks to Shula then we could get an interesting Alan / Shula dynamic.

Alice's relatives in Ambridge, alphabetically.

Adam - half brother
Alastair - ex husband of cousin once removed
Ben - second cousin
Brian - father
Chris - husband
Clarrie - sister in law's mother in law
Dan - second cousin
David - first cousin once removed
Debbie- half sister
Ed - sister in law's husband
Eddie - sister in law's father in law
Elizabeth - cousin once removed
Emma - sister in law
Fallon - daughter of partner of cousin once removec
Freddie - second cousin
Harrison - husband of daughter of partner of cousin once removed
Helen - first cousin
Henry - cousin once removed
Ian - half brothers partner
Jack - cousin once removed
James - first cousin
Jim Lloyd - ex father in law of cousin once removed
Jenny - mother
Jolene - partner of cousin once removed
Josh - second cousin
Justin - aunts partner
Kate - sister
Kenton - cousin once removed
Lee -first cousin's partner
Leonie wife? partner? of first cousin
Lilian - aunt
Lily - second cousin
Lynda Snell - wife of father in law of first cousin
Mungo - first cousin's son
Natasha - cousin's wife
Neil - father in-law
Pat - uncles wife
Peggy - grandmother
Phoebe - neice
Pip - second cousin
Robert Snell - father in law of first cousin
Roy- neice's father
Ruari - half brother
Ruth - wife of cousin once removed
Shula - cousin once removed
Susan - mother in law
Tom - first cousin
Tony - uncle
Tracey - mother in law's sister
Xander - nephew

Who have I forgotten?

George and Keira -husband's nephew and niece.
William - brother in law's brother / sister in law's ex husband
Jill - widow of mother's first cousin
Leonard - partner of widow of mother's first cousin
Kathy - cousin once removed's ex.

Kirsty - first cousin's ex
Jazzer - boyfriend of mother in law's sister.

@Dulcinae

Alice's relatives in Ambridge, alphabetically.

Adam - half brother
Alastair - ex husband of cousin once removed
Ben - second cousin
Brian - father
Chris - husband
Clarrie - sister in law's mother in law
Dan - second cousin
David - first cousin once removed
Debbie- half sister
Ed - sister in law's husband
Eddie - sister in law's father in law
Elizabeth - cousin once removed
Emma - sister in law
Fallon - daughter of partner of cousin once removec
Freddie - second cousin
Harrison - husband of daughter of partner of cousin once removed
Helen - first cousin
Henry - cousin once removed
Ian - half brothers partner
Jack - cousin once removed
James - first cousin
Jim Lloyd - ex father in law of cousin once removed
Jenny - mother
Jolene - partner of cousin once removed
Josh - second cousin
Justin - aunts partner
Kate - sister
Kenton - cousin once removed
Lee -first cousin's partner
Leonie wife? partner? of first cousin
Lilian - aunt
Lily - second cousin
Lynda Snell - wife of father in law of first cousin
Mungo - first cousin's son
Natasha - cousin's wife
Neil - father in-law
Pat - uncles wife
Peggy - grandmother
Phoebe - neice
Pip - second cousin
Robert Snell - father in law of first cousin
Roy- neice's father
Ruari - half brother
Ruth - wife of cousin once removed
Shula - cousin once removed
Susan - mother in law
Tom - first cousin
Tony - uncle
Tracey - mother in law's sister
Xander - nephew

Who have I forgotten?

Johnny - presumably like Henry a cousin once removed

Thank you for explaining the difference between degrees and removals of cousinship! It's one of those things (like "bringing an event forwards/backwards") that I hear fairly often and can never remember the difference.

Hugely impressive list Dulcinae. Apart from Bert Fry and the silents , they all seem to be there!

I never understood the difference between removed and second etc cousins. The erudition here is amazing!

Many thanks for all the cousin explanations and these glorious lists. Incredible amount of interconnection when you see it all set out like that.

New thread on the horizon! Title ideas? The Mystery Play has gone away (I hope). I wonder if the Ambridge Cricket Club will be able to play any fixtures this year. What else is on the horizon?

Too many horizons. Why do I only notice this stuff as I am clicking Send?

Also:
Toby - father of second cousin's child / nephew (I think) of mother's cousin's first wife
Rex - uncle of second cousin's child / nephew of mother's cousin's first wife.

The only people I can't connect to Alice are Bert Fry, Jakob, and Joy Horville. Unless Jakob and Kate are still an item?

Bert Fry - former employee of first cousin once removed.

I think Jakob and Kate are still an item. We'd have heard the wailing if they'd split up!

Just to throw a final contribution into the cousins topic, it is possible for generations to get out of sync, sometimes by multiple generations, so you can be the same age as your second cousin three times (generations) removed, for example. That happens easily when people have big families, or some people reproduce early, some late (so even within a generation, you can get a niece who is older than her aunt, for example. That would have happened with Ruari, if Adam or Debbie had had DCs in their 20s /early 30s).

Oh it did happen of course. Phoebe is older than Ruari but is his (half) niece. I'm not sure how old Noli and Seepo (sp?) are but probably older than Ruari too.

So it Phoebe had a child, that child would be Ruari's great-niece/nephew. Ruari's child would be Phoebe's cousin and her child's first cousin once removed, as one generation above that child, while quite possibly being ten or twenty+ years (a generation's worth) younger.