Family court - what’s the point?

[NooNooMummy]

How would this go down? Next family court hearing/ CAFCASS meeting, I just say nothing. He lies, they listen. I point them to his DV, abuse,violence, lies and it’s ignored (Are they not allowed to consider the copies of emails/ text messages and the involvement of various agencies?) I give up.

I truly believe they don’t even read the emails I document everything because I’m not very good in court and then when we get to court he just talks over me talks over the judge and the judge when I pointed out they have documents in front of them looks at them like it’s the first time they’ve ever seen them

Same. Or they’re offended by the suggestion that they haven’t read everything. It’s unbelievable that children’s lives are at stake here. Good luck!

Get a barrister. They are listened to. Children’s lives are worth the outlay. Barristers know how to advocate for you and ensure the lies of others are exposed.

A good barrister is worth their weight in gold.

They know exactly what to say, and when and how to say it. Abusers' nonsense rolls right over their backs, they've seen them all before.

I also highly recommend a good solicitor to write your statements, or at least the statement for the final hearing. They go through your documentation and pull out exactly what needs to be highlighted to your barrister - and the judge.

I think it’s interesting that people think they can replicate the skills of a barrister with no training at all. People advocating for themselves slows down the work of the court and can irritate judges. Most people wouldn’t say they are teachers, engineers, doctors or architects with no training but suddenly think they can do the work of a barrister. In truth, most people cannot.

@TizerorFizz

I think it’s interesting that people think they can replicate the skills of a barrister with no training at all. People advocating for themselves slows down the work of the court and can irritate judges. Most people wouldn’t say they are teachers, engineers, doctors or architects with no training but suddenly think they can do the work of a barrister. In truth, most people cannot.

It's got nothing to do with thinking they can do the job. Do you know how much barristers cost?

My barrister for my divorce charged me £5000 for just over a days work which with the greatest of respect and he was brilliant it’s just completely beyond most people

Yes, a barrister cannot change the outcome but they take away some of the stress. You do have to be aware that they speak for you and you cannot then speak for yourself so you need to be confident in your appointed counsel.

My MIL paid £2,000 for counsel for one day in court for us. I didnt have the heart to tell her it was in fact £3,900. Well beyond what most people can afford. I actually remortgaged my home to pay legal fees.

What a pp has said about Judges being irritated by litigants in person,is correct. I remember one looking askance when all parties were unrepresented. It shows how out of touch with reality most Judges are. At least he had read the paperwork, he told me he had stayed up until midnight going through it.

@NynaeveSedai
Yes. I do. But like everything in life, you get what you pay for. I think some judges benc over backwards to accommodate litigants in person but sometimes it’s a very slow process. You don’t need to pay £4000 a day for a barrister! However they haven’t worked for 1 day! It’s often lots of prep! However anyone using a barrister via their solicitor will get a choice. A younger barrister would be less.

It’s actually not beyond what most people can afford. Quite ordinary folk do afford £5000. That’s because their children matter more to them than anything else.

You need a really good solicitor to start with to write the letters back and forth/statements etc. Then a cracking barrister for the days in court.

Personally cost me and DP thousands. It's so much more than just the barristers fee.

It’s not £5000 though for example 2
Day FF and 2 day final hearing plus conference
And prep time that’s £15,000 and if the court cancels delays you don’t get it back.

It is difficult. On the one hand, I can see how daunting it must be to be faced with a large bill to have a barrister, on the other hand, there is a reason why they are so expensive. As a pp says, barristers have trained over a number of years, and know, or should know, how to make your case in court. DIL is a barrister and dies a lot of 'family' work. She spends many, many house preparing for her cases, time which has to be paid even though it's not becessarily 'visible' to her clients. Her results speak for themselves.

Aren't family courts a bit of racket? That's why they're secret. Social workers in league with the Council because foster care generates income for the cash-strapped Council? Frankly, they may even be mates to some extent with a legal team so everyone is quids in but you.

@wombleflump

It’s not £5000 though for example 2 Day FF and 2 day final hearing plus conference And prep time that’s £15,000 and if the court cancels delays you don’t get it back.

I don't know of any barrister that will charge you a full day for a conference. Prep time is normally included in the hearing fee. So no, that isn't anywhere near £15,000. And for a child arrangements case, it should be possible to find a barrister who will do the whole lot for substantially less than £3,000. I'm not saying everyone can afford that but let's not exaggerate the costs.

Of course, a solicitor can represent you in the family court, which may be cheaper than using a barrister (although I accept that some people will still find this out of reach).

Regarding cancellations by the court, there is at least one case where a client successfully complained to the Parliamentary and Health Service Ombudsman, resulting in the court being ordered to pay them £3,600 plus interest for their legal costs and a further £100 for the inconvenience.

Try being in Scotland where you can have multiple child welfare hearings and end up with no final order. It is a complete racket. I too had to mortgage my home to afford legal costs. No idea how you are supposed to manage to pay.

@NewspaperTaxis

Aren't family courts a bit of racket? That's why they're secret. Social workers in league with the Council because foster care generates income for the cash-strapped Council? Frankly, they may even be mates to some extent with a legal team so everyone is quids in but you.

This has to be a joke, right?

How do you suppose foster care generates income for the council?

Your paperwork needs to be factual... Just that factual... No he said/ she said... No long drawn out explainations no reams of back stories.
Just bullet points of key dates, clear explanation of who said/what happened and any involvement of anyone/ agencies/ nurseries etc.

Your paperwork has to be a complete 'bundle' only matters mentioned in the 'bundle' that has been lodged will be discussed. No surprise declarations or incidents will be discussed. If there's other matters to be discussed an adjournment will need to be arranged.

The thing to remember when people these grand statements on here about family Courts and Child arrangements being easy to represent yourself in, so there's no excuse for anyone not being able to go to Court. It's by no means easy. Self representation is not easy.
Solicitors are OK, but ideally you need a Barrister.

Pissing off a Judge is the last thing you want to do. Bumbling Solicitors aren't great either.

You need a Barrister to talk to the Judge. They know exactly how to proceed and communication is paramount.
Two parents who hate each other, and aren't being reasonable in the interests of their kids aren't looked upon favourably by the Courts.
CAFCASS will have submitted their reports so are usually only their to explain anything in more detail, or to take further instruction of the Court following proceedings.

*make

Well, don't foster parents have to pay a fee of sorts to the Council? Certainly in many cases to have kids in foster care saves the Council money putting them up in Council-run care facilities.

Not saying it's on a par with Tuam in County of Galway where there was a massive adoption racket going on that everyone appeared to be in on, the Council, the US embassy et al - that was 50s and 60s - but money changed hands somewhere along the line.

See the chapter 'Maggie' in the book 'In Your Defence' by I think Sarah Langford for more on this. Not sure it goes into the financial motive but it's made clear the system is rigged by the Council.

@NewspaperTaxis placing children in foster care costs councils thousands and thousands. It is a massive chunk of their budgets. It is why social workers are so keen to keep children with relatives if they do need to be removed from their parents care. The bar for removal is massively high. Social workers generally keep trying and trying to keep families together.

I’ve got current quotes from barristers and only very junior ones are slightly cheaper. I have been quoted
By many barristers £7k for two
Days 10k for 2.5 days plus a
Conference fee on top. £3k would not be enough for a comped case. I think this in away is unfair if you are low income
DV you can get legal aid but otherwise you have to self rep or spend so much money you could
Spend on your children on legal council.

Also someone said a barrister can’t change the outcome. However everyone advising you need
One is saying the opposite in effect.

@NewspaperTaxis

Aren't family courts a bit of racket? That's why they're secret. Social workers in league with the Council because foster care generates income for the cash-strapped Council? Frankly, they may even be mates to some extent with a legal team so everyone is quids in but you.

Foster care costs an absolute fortune. How could it possible generate income??

Well, don't foster parents have to pay a fee of sorts to the Council? Certainly in many cases to have kids in foster care saves the Council money putting them up in Council-run care facilities.

No, foster carers get paid. Why on Earth would they pay the council to care for the children? They get paid, their supervising social workers get paid, the child's social workers get paid, the courts get paid...it costs an absolute fortune. There are no council run care facilities these days, they are all privately run which you've guessed it also cost a fortune.
Believe me, there is no benefit to taking children into care other than the benefit of protecting them from harm.

I can only speak from my experience and yes of course I understand that there was massive amounts of prep work that went on in the background and the £5000 covered that as well my barrister was even working on a bank holiday Monday to make sure that everything reached the judge in time. I’m in no way trying to minimise the work they do or indeed that they’re worth it, just that whether your children are important to you or not is pretty irrelevant if you don’t have the five grand available.