Family court - what’s the point?

[NooNooMummy]

How would this go down? Next family court hearing/ CAFCASS meeting, I just say nothing. He lies, they listen. I point them to his DV, abuse,violence, lies and it’s ignored (Are they not allowed to consider the copies of emails/ text messages and the involvement of various agencies?) I give up.

I think there are people who represent themselves that can pay but don’t want to. Plenty of grandparents pay and many people do find a way.

Barristers come at a variety of prices! Look for relatively recent call dates for less expensive ones. People need to instruct solicitors about fees they can afford. If you cannot afford the 25 years since call experienced barrister: say so. Look at the younger barristers with 3-5 years since call. Also some chambers are more expensive than others! Solicitors should know who to go to for competitive rates if the client needs this. Often a younger barrister will do a great job. And they will cost less.

@NewspaperTaxis

Well, don't foster parents have to pay a fee of sorts to the Council? Certainly in many cases to have kids in foster care saves the Council money putting them up in Council-run care facilities.

Not saying it's on a par with Tuam in County of Galway where there was a massive adoption racket going on that everyone appeared to be in on, the Council, the US embassy et al - that was 50s and 60s - but money changed hands somewhere along the line.

See the chapter 'Maggie' in the book 'In Your Defence' by I think Sarah Langford for more on this. Not sure it goes into the financial motive but it's made clear the system is rigged by the Council.

No! Why on Earth would people actually pay to foster a stranger’s children? What a completely bizarre thing to think.

Social workers will do all they can to avoid children being taken into care or removed from families, in part because of course its best for children to remain in birth families if it’s safe for them to do so, but also because children being in foster care costs astonishing amounts of money that the council has to pay for.

@TizerorFizz ffs please don't imply that people who can't pay for a barrister don't care about their kids more than anything.
Plenty of people can't access thousands of pounds. From any source at all.
My DD had absolutely no way of paying for legal counsel when she was fighting her child's abusive father. She was terrified and would've sold her soul for a barrister. She cares about her DC above anyone in this world.
Some people just simply do not have enough money or any means of borrowing it!
If my DD hadn't had me, she would not have had representation in court. And even I had to use all my savings in the end to foot the bill. And I'm lucky enough not to be poor and be in a position to have savings in the first place.

[quote Weatherwax13]@TizerorFizz ffs please don't imply that people who can't pay for a barrister don't care about their kids more than anything.
Plenty of people can't access thousands of pounds. From any source at all.
My DD had absolutely no way of paying for legal counsel when she was fighting her child's abusive father. She was terrified and would've sold her soul for a barrister. She cares about her DC above anyone in this world.
Some people just simply do not have enough money or any means of borrowing it!
If my DD hadn't had me, she would not have had representation in court. And even I had to use all my savings in the end to foot the bill. And I'm lucky enough not to be poor and be in a position to have savings in the first place.[/quote]
If your Daughter was a victim of DV, she would have qualified for Legal Aid. Her Counsel would have been funded by Legal Aid.

If your Daughter was a victim of DV, she would have qualified for Legal Aid. Her Counsel would have been funded by Legal Aid.

Only if she met very specific conditions. Plenty of victims of DA don't qualify for legal aid.

@NynaeveSedai

If your Daughter was a victim of DV, she would have qualified for Legal Aid. Her Counsel would have been funded by Legal Aid.

Only if she met very specific conditions. Plenty of victims of DA don't qualify for legal aid.

With the PP saying her daughter was terrified of her ex, it would suggest there were circumstances that were severe enough to qualify, especially if backed by documentation from a GP or HCP. Domestic Violence isn't a grey area in many, many Legal Aid applications.

@GertietheGherkin legal aid doesn't pay for barristers. And you pretty much have to accept any of the few solicitors who will take up your legal aid case. And they are so stretched you can't even guarantee they'll read your bundle of info and will often push clients toward the speediest outcome. Not the best outcome.

Social workers in league with the Council because foster care generates income for the cash-strapped Council?
What total nonsense. Foster care costs councils a bloody fortune, as does going through the legal process.

How does anyone imagine that a council makes money from taking children into care? It costs thousands.

Anyway OP is talking about private proceedings which have nothing to do with councils and social workers.

Honestly the tripe on here sometimes.

If your Daughter was a victim of DV, she would have qualified for Legal Aid. Her Counsel would have been funded by Legal Aid.

I qualified for legal aid. I basically had to accept one of the very few solicitors who would take on the case. I was passed around between solicitors within the firm and the one I ended up with was awful. My ex got everything he asked for and more with no argument. It certainly didn't fund a barrister.

We'll have to agree to disagree on that fact then. I actually deal with these issues every day of my working week.

[quote Weatherwax13]@GertietheGherkin legal aid doesn't pay for barristers. And you pretty much have to accept any of the few solicitors who will take up your legal aid case. And they are so stretched you can't even guarantee they'll read your bundle of info and will often push clients toward the speediest outcome. Not the best outcome.[/quote]
Legal aid does pay for barristers. @GertietheGherkin is correct.

@Weatherwax13
My whole point was that people often do find the money somehow. You said you paid. So there you are. And yes, legal aid was a possibility.

I would add that legal aid payments to barristers are so low they are often working for nothing much. That’s why many don’t want to do legal aid work very often.

[quote Weatherwax13]@GertietheGherkin legal aid doesn't pay for barristers. And you pretty much have to accept any of the few solicitors who will take up your legal aid case. And they are so stretched you can't even guarantee they'll read your bundle of info and will often push clients toward the speediest outcome. Not the best outcome.[/quote]
Erm yes it does

Legal aid certainly does pay for barristers, but there are a number of reasons why someone wouldn’t qualify for legal aid despite being a victim of DV. Having an interest in property (even if it’s paying a mortgage to keep a roof over the child’s head and there’s no money spare), or running a business even if it doesn’t bring in vast amounts, are just two reasons I can think of where people have been turned down for legal aid despite clear evidence of DV.

I would agree the bar for legal aid is set way too low and there are elements that need changing.

@TizerorFizz @GertietheGherkin I can assure you she could NOT get legal aid for a barrister. It's this fucking phenomenon again whereby some MN simply cannot conceive of someone else having a different experience. Ffs. Why would I use my only savings for something that could have been provided by legal aid. My DD and her child were the victims of serious and sustained DV. And gold star for you. You're quite right @TizerorFizz I did pay. Case closed. I'm sure absolutely every single desperate woman in my DD's position has a fairy godmother in the wings too......oh wait . Maybe not??
Can you even contemplate the idea that some families live payday to pay day and there is NOTHING else. No home equity. No wealthy relative. Not enough income or assets or credit rating to raise a loan. No fucking bank to rob.
@Garriet legal aid would NOT fund a barrister for DD. Only an overworked junior solicitor. One of the many reasons DV victims don't leave: because they know damn well that without money, their chances of successfully fighting their abuser in Court is close to nil. So they'd rather remain human punchbags than risk leaving and the man being granted unsupervised access to the children without her.

[quote Weatherwax13]@TizerorFizz @GertietheGherkin I can assure you she could NOT get legal aid for a barrister. It's this fucking phenomenon again whereby some MN simply cannot conceive of someone else having a different experience. Ffs. Why would I use my only savings for something that could have been provided by legal aid. My DD and her child were the victims of serious and sustained DV. And gold star for you. You're quite right @TizerorFizz I did pay. Case closed. I'm sure absolutely every single desperate woman in my DD's position has a fairy godmother in the wings too......oh wait . Maybe not??
Can you even contemplate the idea that some families live payday to pay day and there is NOTHING else. No home equity. No wealthy relative. Not enough income or assets or credit rating to raise a loan. No fucking bank to rob.
@Garriet legal aid would NOT fund a barrister for DD. Only an overworked junior solicitor. One of the many reasons DV victims don't leave: because they know damn well that without money, their chances of successfully fighting their abuser in Court is close to nil. So they'd rather remain human punchbags than risk leaving and the man being granted unsupervised access to the children without her.[/quote]
I have an excellent barrister and they are entirely funded by Legal Aid.

Legal aid, or the lack thereof, is one of the main issues which has impacted on the way family courts are run and it’s a big problem for sure.

However if someone does qualify for legal aid they absolutely can get a barrister funded for a hearing - it just isn’t a case of a different experience or a postcode lottery, many barristers take on legal aid cases every day even though they certainly don’t get paid the same rate as doing their private work. It sounds to me like your daughter @Weatherwax13 may have been poorly advised, or perhaps her solicitor decided to do the hearing themselves as many can (the solicitor is retained by the client and instructs the barrister). It sounds like in her case this is what happened, and that isn’t because legal aid wouldn’t fund a barrister for the hearings, but rather what the solicitor chose.

@Weatherwax13
That’s also a criminal offence. Why did she not get a Legal Aid barrister? On what grounds? Legal aid practices are not everywhere. As I said above, these cases often don’t pay the bills. So a junior solicitor is fine. That doesn’t mean they are not good. Ditto junior barristers. So why didn’t she get a barrister on legal aid?

@Weatherwax13

I echo what @Garriet has written

As an aside, I’d also say that there are large numbers of experienced family law solicitors and barristers who accept legal aid funding, as care proceedings (the public law side of family law) are almost entirely publicly funded, so it certainly doesn’t mean legal aid lawyers are somehow worse, it’s more likely to be the other way around. I regularly work alongside and instruct solicitors with legal aid funding, and those who go to court themselves (instead of instructing barristers) are always professional and highly competent.

[quote TizerorFizz]@Weatherwax13
My whole point was that people often do find the money somehow. You said you paid. So there you are. And yes, legal aid was a possibility.[/quote]
People who can find the money find the money.

Those who have no line of credit, no cash, no family with lines of credit or cash to lend them...they don't find the money, and there are lots of those people.

It's worth bearing in mind that for many people £1000 may as well be £100,000, as they are both completely unattainable sums of money.

Of course I accept some people cannot find any money. But some do qualify for legal aid. The person querying this did have some money. It was also the case that what was happening was criminal. So it wasn’t purely a family issue. We still don’t know why legal aic didn’t pay for a barrister.

I fit in category of can but doesn’t want to pay for a barrister. Do people working in the field think I really need one? If it will change the outcome can anyone recommend a London barrister that is good but not ridiculously expensive. I was quoted £65k by a solicitor firm to run a whole case. So so far have done it all my self.