Family court - what’s the point?

[NooNooMummy]

How would this go down? Next family court hearing/ CAFCASS meeting, I just say nothing. He lies, they listen. I point them to his DV, abuse,violence, lies and it’s ignored (Are they not allowed to consider the copies of emails/ text messages and the involvement of various agencies?) I give up.

Yeah people can't choose their parents. Some get good ones and some get bad ones.

My brother would love it if his ex was more interested in their children - he can see what having an absent mother does to a child's self esteem. This will of course be the same the other way around and having an absent father will cause similar issues and potential problems with mental health.

He used to pay for her train tickets for her to come and see her daughter and sometimes food when she had no money. It is sad but, from what I can see of my nieces whilst they are angry with their mum would like a relationship with her.

I don't think it's ever too late if the child's willing. There was a point when the eldest niece was very upset and was under CAHMS at one point I suspect in part due to the abandonment. I think it's important to encourage the relationship personally.

Family court is very very expensive but it is absolutely necessary to have the right advice and representation. Can be an extremely unfair system though. Cost DP more than £80k over 2 years, ex got legal aid as alleged DV & wasn’t working. In the end DP managed to get full custody of kids with ex having lost pr due to the lies/ongoing abuse/mental state/alienation etc.
DP nearly gave up - ran out of money to continue & felt maybe the kids would be under less pressure even if they lost their relationship with him. I think there are a lot of people (particularly fathers) who end up in this situation as they don’t have the funds for adequate representation in court.

I disagree with some presumptions on here.

1. I think the mantra of contact at all costs is in the best interest of children are just passed around from professionals as true because everyone is saying it. Maybe someone taught them this.

But Where is the evidence? Where is the research.?

1. People are so dismissive of abuse. I’m sorry but some one who is violent to their ex is capable of violence is not a trustworthy parent. You can’t separate abusive to parent ( that’s ok love) but he’s a ok parent . No I don’t agree ( it’s another misguided mantra)

1. There is difference between a feckless or absent parent to a abusive one. People like me and others who have experienced abusive people know you can not trust or reason with them. They will manipulate professionals, the children, mentally torture you and make your life hell. They enjoy turning your kids against you and they can not be trusted. They lie even to themselves. What about emotional harm.

That’s why contact is supervised!

This is what courts consider. Children’s welfare first.

It’s only supervised briefly though with the
Presumption this can’t be long term

The chart is nice but how is it translated in practice. Not in the way most reasonable people would implement it.

Abuse:
use (something) to bad effect or for a bad purpose; misuse.

Everyone has been abusive at some point - told a lie, been a bit naughty, I don't think it's helpful to say "abuse" and leave it as that. My friend is currently abusing my hospitality by overstaying his welcome but ce la vie and telling me he has done me so many favours in the past (using control tactics).

It has to be serious abuse. Not that someone called their partner a naughty name or tried to guilt someone into staying longer.

Wombleflump, I think you need to weight up the severity of the abuse against a child losing their parent. It's a crude generalization here but the trauma of losing a parent could be worse than a bit of argy bargy.

Yes, SundaysinKernow legal aid is exploited at the moment and LASPO requirements have become something of a joke. Similar to your partner it's all worked out very well for me. I suspect judges are used to seeing real victims of abuse and others who have jumped on the train for some legal aid and the chance to remove their ex from child's life.

I’m talking about abuse not just trivial things conflict like you mention.
I think if you haven’t experienced it it’s hard to comprehend IMO.
People downplay it but that’s how children end up on high risk damaging situations because abusers always try to turn it into mutual conflict. Which it is not.

As illustrated

I know the power and control wheel. I don't think you are suggesting asking someone to wear x means they can't see their child?

A lot of it is open to interpretation. For example "if he rejects your advances" he is an abuser. What happens if he doesn't reject your advances and feels coerced? Does that mean you are a rapist?

s3.amazonaws.com/fwvcorp/wp-content/uploads/20160121105935/Power-control-wheel-eng-4-w-description.pdf

One of them is "threatening to take your children away". My ex was threatened with a care order as I didn't see our child for a year. In doing so she isolated my child and I so was in effect coercively controlling us both. She also "told lies about me" which would also count and told those lies to the police and family court?

Does this mean applying the power and control wheel ex shouldn't be able to see our child? Of course not.

It's not a great tool. That's why we have judges to ascertain whether the "abuse" has any significance.

But the judges are trying to look out for the child. So if abuse affects the child then that’s a different matter. It’s all a matter of degree isn’t it? What are the best interests of the child?

Your ex hits your child.
You don’t let your ex see your child.
Ex tells court to let you see child it was only a hit.
Child is small doesn’t know right from wrong. Wants to see ex of course.
Ex pays expensive lawyer to say you are alienating ex.
Court said Children have to see ex.
Ex continues to hit child. Ex poisons child against you. Or worse manages to get child off you because of alienation. Ex lies to everyone.
So what should you do in the best interest of child.
It’s awful really

Ensure the child sees both parents in a controlled setting. However I’m not a judge. Not legally trained. The court decided but they can be asked to look at it again.

Yes you are right TizerorFizz some parents seem to conflate inappropriate behaviour towards them as inappropriate behavior towards their child. Even the "abusers handbook" states that an abuser is capable of being nice to other people and not their partner and that means they know what they are doing and can pick and choose who they are nice to. Ergo they have the capacity to be nice to their child.

wombleflump how is a child who doesnt know right from wrong capable of being manipulated and alienated from a parent? Is this hypothetical?

Yes parental alienation is a sick pathology. I suspect it's rooted in childhood trauma and is the stock in trade of people with personality disorders and narcists. It's not a good idea for children to reside with such parents if it's irredeemable.

Thankfully the domestic abuse bill means the law has moved on from your outdated views that abuse to a parent in front of a child does not affect a child.

Parental alienation a concept not based in science and often used by abusive parents to twist the truth and manipulate the courts. The truth is always there though.

Yeah my outdated views that "abuse" is a complex subject and a blanket ban on contact and a binary approach is not correct given that abuse is likely on a spectrum.

Parental alienation isn't based in science? So if I decide to take my 2 year old to the shops and pretend she is seeing her mum on a day she isnt supposed to be there and stage it so it looks like she didn't turn up? Purely so I can upset her that's not based in science? If I said your mum is x,y and z when she is in my care that's not based in science? Or I said "your mum is feeding you bad food" that's not based in science?

You need to get a grip. People like that exist and they do that kind of thing. It's called parental alienation. It happens to mums too. I could do that I have our daughter 3 nights a week. If I was a terrible human I could do that. And you say that doesn't happen as "it's not based on science". Pffft.

The courts will consider parental alienation and look at the evidence presented that proves it, or indeed doesn’t prove it.

The Parental Alienation Syndrome (PAS) is a controversial theory. PAS is based on the assumption that if a child rejects their father, the most likely cause of the alienation is the mother. Treatment involves separating the child from their mother, and punishing them both until the child cooperates with visitation. PAS often used by abusers to change the narrative. The child is not allowed to reject the abusive parent because they are abusive. Suddenly the mother is PAS. At the same time abusive people often weaponise the kids like by trying to have the kids residence removed from the mother by the court.

Not talking about any syndrome. It’s about manipulating a child to dislike a parent by actions or words that prejudice the non resident parent having a fair chance to be a parent.

@TizerorFizz

Not talking about any syndrome. It’s about manipulating a child to dislike a parent by actions or words that prejudice the non resident parent having a fair chance to be a parent.

Parental Alienation is a cheap and underhand tactic employed almost entirely by abusive parents to try and deflect from the fact it is entirely their own behaviour which has resulted in a child feeling this way.

It is contemptuous and it’s itself it is actual technical parental alienation.

Most people accused of parental alienation are too terrified to put a foot wrong with regards to the accuser.

It’s in itself

Parental alienation is a pattern of behaviours. I don't believe courts like the term as it's contentious.

If a parent is defying court orders for no apparent reason, has been found to have lied and manipulated following a finding of fact and has been telling a child terrible things that are untrue about the other parent this would be a pattern of behaviours which could be called "parental alienation".

CAFCASS accept parental alienation and have a pathway:
www.cafcass.gov.uk/grown-ups/parents-and-carers/divorce-and-separation/what-to-expect-from-cafcass/parental-alienation/

I think it's very dangerous to deny this can happen as it could leave parents including mums and children in compromised positions. I tend to think of it as a pattern of coercive control on a child. If an adult can be isolated and controlled so can a child.

DebbieHarrysCheekbones some of this bizzare radical feminist domestic abuse stuff makes zero to little sense.

You say parental alienation scarcely exists. However, it does exist when the person accusing it has accused it. In which case they are parentally alienating. In which case it happens a lot because it gets banded around so much. This doesn't make any logical sense.

A lot of this current thinking around domestic abuse is routed in ideology. It has no place in the courts where decisions are being made about childrens lives.