Family court - what’s the point?

[NooNooMummy]

How would this go down? Next family court hearing/ CAFCASS meeting, I just say nothing. He lies, they listen. I point them to his DV, abuse,violence, lies and it’s ignored (Are they not allowed to consider the copies of emails/ text messages and the involvement of various agencies?) I give up.

Weren’t recoverable sorry

@RedWingBoots
Barristers do appear in front of magistrates in family court proceedings. It’s true that many magistrates are poor. The appeals against magistrates decisions is way above those of judges. I agree magistrates should be phased out. Even bigger backlogs if they do though.

I'm not sure that claims that Councils don't profit from fostering add up. Surrey County Council has been actively lobbying for foster carers - and it's known that any parents who risk taking their kid to A&E for a minor bruise may get their kid abducted and taken into care. There is also an undercurrent of fear and secrecy - the journalist Louise Tickle has been trying to highlight this with limited success - that suggests something very odd is going on here. It's not my area - thank goodness - but it's also clear that it's the State's area, and we don't belong there.

@NewspaperTaxis

I'm not sure that claims that Councils don't profit from fostering add up. Surrey County Council has been actively lobbying for foster carers - and it's known that any parents who risk taking their kid to A&E for a minor bruise may get their kid abducted and taken into care. There is also an undercurrent of fear and secrecy - the journalist Louise Tickle has been trying to highlight this with limited success - that suggests something very odd is going on here. It's not my area - thank goodness - but it's also clear that it's the State's area, and we don't belong there.

Yes they recruit foster carers to care for the children who need placements and to reduce the cost of agency foster carers. Please go on, tell us how it makes money for councils to put children in foster care. Really, please, I beg you to explain where the money making scheme is.

I can't - you seem a bit pissed off.

But you admit. yourself in the above sentence - it reduces the cost of agency foster carers. So that's one way how.
Presumably couples who adopt then pay for the kids' upbringing. Or does the Council step in to pay for every outing?

But I take it I won't be hearing from you how the money making scheme comes in, so it remains a mystery, like everything to do with the weird and unaccountable social services.

It's okay, I get these kind of responses when I go on the adult social care forum on Mumsnet to talk about social services and care homes. It's like one is up against a highly sensitive cult.

So why do they do it? Why in Surrey do they snatch kids from families for months at a time on the most spurious of reasons - as outlined this year in the Sunday Times? If not for money, why - the sheer spite of it?

The truth may well be that after lockdowns more DC should have been in care. Recent events are the tip of an iceberg. Foster parents are better than care homes.

Any parent who takes a DC to A&E with a minor bruise is obviously an idiot. Serious injuries are another matter.

Many in the family courts do not want journalists involved. These are children we are talking about. Not adults with PR behind them like Harry and Meghan. These judgements and proceedings should be confidential but some are reported when of national importance.

But you admit. yourself in the above sentence - it reduces the cost of agency foster carers. So that's one way how.

Looking to spend £500 instead of £1000 per week isn't a 'money making scheme' it's a way of saving money. The money still goes out not in

Presumably couples who adopt then pay for the kids' upbringing. Or does the Council step in to pay for every outing?

Yes, what's your point?

But I take it I won't be hearing from you how the money making scheme comes in, so it remains a mystery, like everything to do with the weird and unaccountable social services.

That's because there is no way that putting children in foster care could ever possible make
Money for local authorities. It costs a fortune. People who claim that it makes money never ever explain how they think that works.

@NooNooMummy

How would this go down? Next family court hearing/ CAFCASS meeting, I just say nothing. He lies, they listen. I point them to his DV, abuse,violence, lies and it’s ignored (Are they not allowed to consider the copies of emails/ text messages and the involvement of various agencies?) I give up.

OP, I feel exactly the same. I have a barring order and this is the fourth time he's applied to court on spurious grounds and attempting to sue me for 5k. I received the cafcass report today which agrees the court hearing shouldn't go ahead due to not having merit which is great but none of the conversation we had over the phone about abuse and stalking and harrassment has made it to the report. Conversely, his conversation is referenced in minute detail about how I am harassing him (not sure how), abusive to our son etc etc. I almost feel like it's a mugs game getting drawn into spurious applications just lends proceedings legitimacy when they deserve none

octobersunshine - I’m so sorry to hear that you’re going through it too. Cafcass make no sense and never cease to shock me with their incompetence/ ability to ignore actual evidence presented to them. (I think they’ve been infiltrated by Fathers4Justice! 🤨) But at least they’ve recognised the need to stop his application.

And thank you for recognising what I mean! What is the point of even answering court/cafcass questions when you shouldn’t even be being put through this?! I’m just not sure whether some special order for silly, crazy lady will come down on my head if I fail to co-operate.

And at least this thread isn’t still diverted by ‘foster care money making’ discussion .

Hi OP. I've sent a DM. Hope you read it.

At what point do some people think domestic violence should shut down a relationship between parent and child?

My previous ex was physically violent, wouldn't let me leave our flat at points (as she was worried I would leave her) called me names and put me in dubious financial positions.

I suspect she did this because she saw bi-directional abuse from her parents growing up and she was very feisty and opinionated. She was also court trained so could shut me down very quickly.

Would it then follow hypothetically that she should have no access to her child were we to have had a child together? I think that would be a stretch. I would have no proof that she would harm a child and I would only take action if I knew the child was likely to come to harm and i'll be honest I don't think she would.

I see this from my own point of view, and from other NRP's. My X falsely accused me of D,E and F. I have all the proof and no one cares! How can she be fit to look after a child when she falsely accused me of these horrible things.

2 million people are abused each year in the UK. Lets conservatively say 1 million are parents. Does that mean each year 1 million children lose their parents? It's just ridiculous.

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Yes legal aid pays for barristers and they have done in my case from magistrates level. 1 barrister was good the other 3 were hopeless. As soon as you satisfy the LASPO requirements it seems the LAA have their cheque books out.

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The whole system is about as far from child focused as imaginable. You pit two adults against each other and stir the pot of acrimony for profit. Parents need therapists, psychologists and social workers to help end conflict not to protract it through family court.

From a professional and also personal point of view I'm not in agreement that any domestic abuse of one parent should automatically disbar them from contact with the child.
Some perpetrators are pretty irredeemable and highly abusive. They have little chance of changing and are rarely safe around children.
Many perpetrators are weak, situationally triggered and able to control themselves in front of children. Where the relationship is genuinely over and the abuser no longer has any motivation to abuse the other parent, contact is likely to be safe enough for the child.
It does depend on the scenario and to be honest once it's reached the point of family courts any hope of amicable rational co parenting is usually over whether there was domestic abuse or not.

Contact can also be supervised. Most of the time it’s reasonable for parents to see children.

I have been really impressed by our district judge who said to my ex "just because you want it to be true doesn't make it so" (in relation to domestic abuse). She has been totally fair and made some brilliant judgement calls which in hindsight seemed unfair but after a while of processing seemed reasonable.

These are professionals with many years experience who have seen these types of cases over and over. I have done my job for a long time. I can get a reading and feel for a situation very quickly and that comes with experience.

The other problem is there are two sides. Whilst I will be saying what a brilliant job childrens social services and the district judge did and how progressive they were working towards shared care of a two year old my ex will tell you the complete opposite.

People don't general inhabit forums saying how wonderful all the professionals were in their case. It's generally the aggrieved that feed into forums where parents go to read and infer things about their own cases.

@Skeptadad
Yes. You are correct. People feel aggrieved that every minutiae isn’t put to the judge. Barristers have to sort out the most rekeys for points. They also know when a case is not likely to go their way and the client is delusional. There are no doubt people who feel they are let down at every turn but others are ok with thd outcome on reflection. For most kids it’s about keeping two parents in their lives and not retribution.

So strange that we’re suddenly inundated with dads saying how wonderful their experience of family court and what wicked, abusive, butter women their exes are.

Anyway, I’m talking about a situation in which one parent is abusive,controlling and shockingly dishonest. He has also been physically violent to me but not towards our daughter. And CAFCASS and the courts seem incapable of recognising or examining this in relation to their duties to the child.

I just think you need better advice but you cannot get it. If your child wasn’t safe you should involve safeguarding and the police. I don’t think male views here are against you. They see their issues their way, as indeed do you. That doesn’t make them the enemy.

People going through family court do act in very toxic ways. I suspect that goes both ways. It's an emotive subject where your child/ren is going to be living and set in a confrontational environment it sometimes often result in the most appropriate behaviour.

Abusive and controlling? My ex was threatened with an interim care order as she didn't make our daughter available for contact for a year (Covid excuses). That doesn't get anymore controlling. She lied about the most heinous things imaginable (dishonest). Yet she makes a wonderful mum. These things are complicated.

In my own previous relationship I was very distant, disinterested and worked long hours as I no longer connected with my ex. That doesn't mean I am distant and disinterested in our daughter and I now work part time as my priorities changed.

I am pleased we have judges to work through these cases as they can be messy and complicated. I suspect a good proportion of the time they get it right.

@Skeptadad
I think you are right. No one ends up in the family court because they agree! There is usually a big issue (or two and more) that cannot be resolved. So it comes to court.

Usually the decision is reasonable. Sometimes one party is very aggrieved at the judgement and order. By and large trying to find a way through so the child sees both parents is what is wanted. Stability for the child usually drives judgements.

Parental wrangling over many years damages children but many see their position as being the only one and the other parent must be punished. Even if one parent isn’t wholesome, supervised contact is the way forward. Of course it’s emotional and difficult and these feelings have been festering for years prior to court so court can be like an exploding volcano.

It's very hard for you op but the child custody arrangement hearing is only about what is best for dc, not you. Consequently if he's not a threat to them even where there's documented domestic violence eg police records generally visitation is granted though often using a centre. What judges and cafcass really dislike is access to kids being used to punish the other parent, it's only about the good of the child. I don't know your specific circumstances but I do help run a contact centre and I can assure you that there's no easy answers to what is best.

Theres often a lot of discussion re physical abuse, but not so re emotional, such as abandonment/not showing up when expected etc.
Probably more fathers than mothers walk out, then attempt to walk back into a childs life and dont see the damage caused.
Then the other then parent gets the brunt of the abusive blame.
Its all very sad.

Yes that’s true but the absent parent might ask for visits and recognise they made a mistake. They should be listened to about why they want to be part of the child’s life again. They should be mature enough to enter into a binding agreement for seeing the child too.,That can be a good thing if they really mean it. It might not be of course but that’s for the court to decide.

My brother bought up 2 daughters and his ex was very flakey with visiting her children. Although it's been very upsetting for them not to have a mum they still want to have a mother. It's very upsetting with the sense that they have been abandoned. Which they were. The eldest was planning to run away to see her mum but changed her mind when her mum said "you can't run away from your problems". So children will always naturally want a relationship with both parents.

Children only have two parents, they aren't interchangeable. Sometimes it's trying to make the best of what you have.

Ironically said brother said he would visit grandad this Christmas with all his children but my mum knew he would likely change his mind so she didn't mention anything to grandad to manage his expectations. There will always be ways and means.

Im no one so I realise my opinion doesnt matter, but I can understand if a parent was young or had an addiction or some form of problem that impacted their lives and inhibited their ability to form a relationship with their child, but im not sure how an adult could repeatedly make the mistake of being absent from their childs life...thats a choice, and every day is a new day to make that change.
Everything is set toward being in 'the childs best interests' yet a parent 'can' just walk away.
The difficulty in that is you cant force a parent to parent as that probably would cause more problems but I think the fact (say) a father can walk out and walk back in is slightly degrading of the role of the mother.
What if we saw men walking out, whilst the women do the nappy changes, the night feeds, the tantrums...then walk back in when the child is easier to raise (although never an easy age!)
Its a tough job and one of the most important in our society, it shouldnt be looked at as anything less.

The child probably will always be curious to know their biological parents, as in a lot of other situations, but its very difficult for any parent thats had to stand and witness the upset of a lone parent etc.

@RainingBows
Men walk out all the time or make themselves absent. Mostly men. Not always. Then some do realise what a mess they have made of things. It shouldn’t be beyond everyone involved to try again. If people remain on drugs or live a very chaotic life it’s more difficult but it should remain a possibility. Of course most of us don’t understand it but it is pretty common.